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  • Mara writes:

    "The flower was definitely a gift by some john. It could even be by the Ripper himself, who then arranged to meet Stride again, in the yard by Berner Street. In this scenario (with a pre-arranged meeting) the Ripper/the killer cannot have been BS – who surely would not have started pushing her around after having given her a flower?!"

    Ah, sweet youth! There was a time, Maria, when I also believed that a loving gesture was an eternal promise, but alas ...! Surely you must realize that an evening that starts with affection and love may turn into something else before it is over, Maria?
    There is even a suggestion to make, supported by the evidence, that may go to show you what COULD have happened: Marshall stated that his man said: "You will say anything but your prayers" to Stride. What if that was in response to Stride promising him not to walk the streets anymore? And what if he later found her outside Dutfeilds yard, seemingly soliciting? To me, that would present a very useful scenario, explaining how you can first affectionately buy your loved one a flower, only to, an hour later, be bitterly disappointed with her.

    "BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all."

    That holds very little water, I´m afraid. There are two possible leaks, even: You cannot be certain of how much of a likeness the sketch of Kidney gives us (and it is made from his side, so we cannot judge if he was broad-shouldered or not). Moreover, the witness description given by Schwartz, was a description given by a frightened man, seeing things on a dark street in a fleeting moment. I know of witness descriptions that have gone very much astray, Maria, and there is simply not enough in it to say for sure.

    The best,
    Fisherman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fisherman
      BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all."
      Like Fisherman, I agree that we cannot use witness evidence alone to rule someone out. But the significant differences are one of many indicators which prove that Kidney was neither BS Man nor Stride's killer. But to mind mind, it's not the most compelling.

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott

      Comment


      • To Fisherman:
        I didn't say “eternal promise“! Hopefully I'm not THAT naive, and, as it happens, I've always found men who offer flowers suspicious, either as phonies (it's a much too generic gesture, and almost always it belongs to a “strategy“ tried out on all females he has ever approached), or, if already in a relationship, bringing the missus some flowers almost always telegraphs that Mr. has done something wrong, and the flowers are an attempt to clear his conscience! But you're totally right, especially with a streetwalker, the evening might have very well started with flowers and ended with knives. Silly of me not to see this before.
        As for the "You will say everything but your prayers" witnessed by Marshall (which, by the way, as I've read in another thread on Strike, was a common expession in Victorian English), to me it TOTALLY signifies a beginner's state of courtship, with people still unfamiliar with each other. I can't picture Kidney saying something as distant as that to Stride (he would say something much more personal and aggressive, esp. if he caught her solliciting again), but I can totally imagine a random john saying "You will say anything but your prayers" to a prostitute, after she has just claimed to him “I really like the way you smell“, or “You are different than my other johns“ or something in that direction. Obviously this little phrase also contains enough disdain and hidden hostility for the sayer of this now famous quote to have been the Ripper himself!
        As for the Kidney sketch, it shows enough of his shoulders, and they are definitely thin! Unless, as you say, Schwartz exaggerated the “broadshouldered“ feature out of fear, or simply to pretend to the police that his situation were dangerous. I've already posted about this possibility on this thread (I think it was the day-before-yesterday or something), and I've wondered if we have Schwartz's physical description. Schwartz might have been a tiny man, and thus “BS“ became a feature in Ripper lore!
        Last edited by mariab; 07-22-2010, 09:28 PM.
        Best regards,
        Maria

        Comment


        • MAria:

          "She might have slept at Dr. Barnardo's mission, as Tom Wescott states in his Examiner 1 essay. Dr. Barnardo even sort of corroborated that."

          I still haven´t found the time to read Toms piece, but I know that Barnardo stated that he saw Stride in the Flower & Dean doss house on Wednesday, and we have rather clear evidence refuting that, given at the inquest:

          Tanner:
          "She was there (the doss house) only on Thursday and Friday"

          ...and the coroner and Lane:

          Coroner: At what time did you see her first on Thursday?
          Lane: Between ten and eleven o´clock.
          Coroner: Did she explain why she was coming back?
          Lane: She said she had had a few words with the man she was living with.

          ..and, finally, the coroner, summing up:

          "She alleged that she had some words with her paramour, but this he denied. The next day she called during his absence, and took away some things, but with this exception, they did not know what became of her until the following Thursday, when she made her appearance at her old quarters in Flower & Dean Street."

          So no, Barnardo would not have seen her there on Wednesday evening! Dave Yost, in his excellent book on the Stride case, writes that it was not until the day of Liz´funeral that he wrote to the Times, and Yost thinks that he was simply creating a story out of his wish to help the poor people of the doss-houses. That sounds pretty compelling to me, given the fact that he referred to the wrong day in which case.

          The best,
          Fisherman

          Comment


          • Hi Fisherman,

            Stride was seen at the doss house on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. No one mentions seeing her there on Wednesday. That doesn't mean she wasn't, of course, but anything is possible.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

            Comment


            • Maria:

              "I can't picture Kidney saying something as distant as that to Stride"

              Good point - I have the self same problem swallowing such a suggestion.

              "Unless, as you say, Schwartz exaggerated the “broadshouldered“ feature out of fear, or simply to pretend to the police that his situation were dangerous."

              Or, Maria, maybe the jacket had shoulderpads - it could have been that easy. But the point that an aggressive man may seem more physically intimidating than he really is, is a good one. Thing is, though, if Marshall saw the same man - and I think that he did - then he also testified to a sturdy guy.

              Once again, by the way, That sketch of Kidney is - exactly, a sketch of Kidney. Ever seen Magrittes painting "Ceci, c´est nes pas une pipe"? It is a painting of a pipe with a text (in french) added, saying "This is not a pipe".
              Magritte was of course right: It was not a pipe - it was a PAINTING of a pipe ...

              The best,
              Fisherman

              Comment


              • "Stride was seen at the doss house on Tuesday"

                I don´t think so, Tom - I think that the witness (a doorman or something like that?) was mistaken, something that was accepted by the coroner. Tanner - as you have seen - was absolutely adamant, and so was Lane.

                The best,
                Fisherman

                Comment


                • Tom W:

                  "the significant differences are one of many indicators which prove that Kidney was neither BS Man nor Stride's killer"

                  Got to read that piece of yours, Tom - you´ve got proof, you say? I agree that much points away from Kidney, but proof?

                  The best,
                  Fisherman

                  Comment


                  • Beyond a reasonable doubt. Most importantly, I show that virtually all substantial arguments used by writers to implicate Kidney in the first place were mistaken or completely fabricated.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • I´ll have to read up, then! Mind you, we have not always agreed about what kinds of doubts are reasonable or not. But I look forward to it!

                      What do you make of Tanners and Lanes assertions that Liz lived with a man in Fashion Street, by the way? One of them - can´t remember which - also states that she had heard that Liz once lived in Devonshire Street.
                      That makes for interesting reading, I´d say!

                      The best,
                      Fisherman

                      Comment


                      • Fisherman,
                        I'd very much like to read Dave Yost's book at some point.
                        I know Magritte, but a pipe is more generic than human features! Even more appropriate would be to cite Sickert's painting with the double title “The Camden murder“ and “What will we do for rent?“, which totally changes the meaning of the painting.
                        Wescott in Examiner 1 states that Stride possibly visited a mission on Wednesday (or on Tuesday? I haven't got the time to look right now), possibly even Dr. Barbardo's mission, and that's why Dr. Barbardo might have remembered her. Obviously none of this is corroborated evidence.

                        Tom, nice to see that you're alive and well, and I'll definitely re-read Examiner 1 and I'll also (finally) read Examiner 2, but right now I'm so behind on some surf lit I need to read (yes, like homework!), plus it's imperative that I work out tonight – in anticipation of tomorrow's alleged increasing swell. That is, if I manage to get up from this bed and away from the computer, while eating and sipping this amazing white wine, from Spier, the farm near Stellenbosch where I went every afternoon to play with this one year old male cheetah, Choby , who got up on his hind feet, much taller than me, like we were about to dance, and put his face on my face. I was totally swepped off my feet. Now, this is what I'd call successful romancing, not offering flowers!)
                        Last edited by mariab; 07-22-2010, 10:02 PM.
                        Best regards,
                        Maria

                        Comment


                        • Fisherman,
                          Did shoulderpadded jackets (as you hypothesized that BS might have been wearing one) exist in 1888? I'm more of a specialist in 18th and 19th century France and Italy, and I've never seen a shoulder padded jacket in paintings or sketches, but perhaps because they were much more discreet that the typical 1980s style we have in mind today when thinking “shoulder pads“!
                          Best regards,
                          Maria

                          Comment


                          • working

                            Hello Fish. Permit a slight emendation. If i recall, Tanner and Lane indicated that Liz was seen on Fashion st as she worked there.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • eccentric

                              Hello Maria.

                              "I'm not with you at all on this, Lynn. I'm assuming that by “MJ“ you mean Mary Kelly?"

                              That's right.

                              "And you believe that neither Stride nor Eddowes were the victims of JTR? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense!"

                              For now, it is best NOT be on board with me on this. My views might be characterized as eccentric.

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • Hi Lynn, I saw you post this elsewhere, but it's not correct. She was seen at the lodging house and not in Fashion Street, but Stride had told one of the women (or so she recalled) that she lived with her man (Kidney) in Fashion Street.

                                Yours truly,

                                Tom Wescott

                                Comment

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