where's Liz?

[Abby Normal]

Hello all,
according to the evidence it doesn't appear to me at all like Stride had a new man and was planning to put up house with him, or even to sleep at his place on September 30. She left the velvet piece at her neighbour's, she sounded like she might expect to return to her dwellings (even if whe didn't pay for them for September 30), etc..
As Caz wrote:
At least the velvet shows her intention to return at some point. And she certainly didn't say she was on a promise with her bed taken care of.

Lynn Cates wrote:
I don't think "Jack" had anything to do with Liz (or Kate or MJ for that matter).
I'm not with you at all on this, Lynn. I'm assuming that by “MJ“ you mean Mary Kelly? And you believe that neither Stride nor Eddowes were the victims of JTR? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make much sense!
(...) Actually, things don't change much over the years.
As for Stride and Kelly having parted, then made up again on a regular basis, there are relationships like this , hell, I was in such a one until about a month ago (minus the physical abuse!), and I completely agree with you that, even with history and society shifting, romantic relationships haven't change too much since 1888, or even since the Rennaissance! That's why Shakespeare's Otello, the comedies by Moličre, and other works of art still speak to us so powerfully today. I believe that Kidney's ego would have been bruised by the constant fighting, but not in a dramatic fashion, but if Stride found another partner, this might have struck Kidney enough to have wanted to kill her.
On the other side, there is the case of Eddowes and Kelly, who sometimes spent nights apart from each other, in different dwellings. Still, I have a strong suspicion that Eddowes was hiding something when she so insistently decided to spent a night away from Kelly. Was there perhaps a “date“ prearranged with some well-off john, perhaps a Jew, who happened to be the Ripper? But this scenario again doesn't fit at all with Eddowes getting so drunk and disorderly, being arrested, and then meeting the Ripper just as she got released out of jail. Their meeting seems more like an accidental occurrence. As you see, the evidence is everything but helpful!

Phil H. wrote:
But this time his ego was severely bruised. He found there was another man, and it seemed to be serious. So he made enguiries and tracked her down, or followed her - saw her with this new man - a Jew, and effing Jewboy!! Now he was angry, Liz was damn well going to come home where she belonged or else...
To me this fits the evidence better than an assumption that JtR made an attack practically in the open, in a heavily frequented spot... not HIS style. But Kidney wouldn't care... he had no plans, acted on impulse, and ... fortunately for him, Jack WAS on the prowl that night, but in his usual dark and solitary places.
This makes MUCH more sense to me. The way I see it right now, I'd say the odds look to me for Stride at 60% to have been a Ripper victim, at 40% to have been killed by Kidney.

Fisherman wrote:
Would Kidney have given Liz the flower she wore? Probably not, given the mindset you think he was of, wouldn´t you say? So who did it? My guess is that Marshalls man is a very good bid - here we have a companion that stands around in a doorway with Liz, fondly speaking with her, kissing her, walking off with her, his arm around her neck. Now, that would not be Kidney, would it?
The flower was definitely a gift by some john. It could even be by the Ripper himself, who then arranged to meet Stride again, in the yard by Berner Street. In this scenario (with a pre-arranged meeting) the Ripper/the killer cannot have been BS – who surely would not have started pushing her around after having given her a flower?! Perhaps the Ripper was Pipeman, avoiding BS and coming back to meet Stride after she got rid of BS. Who knows?

Fisherman wrote:
Thing is, this man tallies totally with the description of BS man, down to the "respectable appearance", the dark trousers, the height, the peaked cap, the black jacket, and the sturdy body. How do we account for that? Well, my solution is that they looked exactly the same because they WERE the same. And if so, BS man was NOT Kidney - but the guy I prefer to call the Fashion Street man.
BS definitely was not Kidney, since the physical description doesn't fit at all. But BS might have been the Ripper, in which case we must rethink our romanticized idea of a “silent“ blitz-attacker who avoided witnesses.
As I see it, ALL of the above mentioned scenarios are fully possible: Kidney (as a scourned lover), BS (as the Ripper or as a random pimp), or Pipeman (as the Ripper) might have slayed Stride.

Caz wrote:
I have always considered that one of Emma’s attackers might have gone on to murder one or more of the subsequent Whitechapel victims, or even been the ripper himself. I retain an open mind on it today, in the absence of any evidence that it was a false conclusion. Are you coming with me on this one?

I'm with you on this, Caz. Also I have to add that this Perry Mason person doesn't sound very, well... sound! And, Caz, I hope that you'll be relieved to hear that when I was at Cape St. Francis earlier today, the local paper store featured “stationery“ with an “e“. So the South Africans seem to have gotten it right. (And I immediately thought of you when I saw the inscription!)
(Apart from this, the swell is tiny, we surfed luckluster longboard waves, and no fish encountered, but many kinds of beautiful shells and unfamiliar birds instead, big and small...)

Hi Maria

"The flower was definitely a gift by some john. It could even be by the Ripper himself, "

I agree. from all i have read it seems most logical to me that Liz and a "john" spent a a long while together that night before she was murdered- this did not seem like the usual quicky. IMHO I could envision a scenario that JtR met Liz and had to spend an inordinate amount of time with her to "soften" her up-including giving her a flower, strolling with her, kissing and flirting with her etc. She may have been more reluctant that night ("not tonight, some other night...)to go staight to the dark alley for several reasons: affection for kidney still on her mind, not drunk enough, fear of WC murderer etc. I could see that JtR could have eventually lost patience and gotten angry when she would not willingly accompany him into the back court at berner street. what Lawende might have seen was JtR (BS man), having been finally rejected by Liz, in the act of going back to her and attacking her
in a fit of rage. I know its not is usual MO but neither was the time it was taking him to try to get her to a dark alley. Even the witness statement of hearing the man say "you would say anything but your prayers.." could be the turning point when JtR was starting to get annoyed at her reluctance.

Thoughts?

[lynn cates]

daily telegraph

Hello Tom. Mistaken it may be. (Perhaps a jumble in the notes.) But the Daily Telegraph has Lane saying:

"The Coroner: Did you recognise it? - Yes, as the body of Long Liz, who lived occasionally in the lodging-house. She came there last Thursday.
[Coroner] Had you ever seen her before? - I have known her for six or seven months. I used to see her frequently in Fashion-street, where she lived, and I have seen her at our lodging-house."

Perhaps another paper has a different street.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Lynn:
It's not just eccentric, it simply doesn't make sense. Then you must possibly connect the murders of Eddowes and Kelly?
To me they were all victims of JTR, not just from Tabram on, but most probably from Anni Millwood and Emma Smith on. And I even consider Barnett as a strong suspect (not JUST for Kelly, but as the Ripper himself), but Kidney I'd possibly consider only as having murdered Stride –perhaps.
Have worked out, but 've not yet found the energy to wash my shorts and shirt and take a shower. For some reason it requires an Herculean effort. African inertia is certainly contagious. Even the lions, when we went to see them (running free) at the wildlife preservation park (and we were joking about being “delivered“ to the lions), were lying around like dead, flattened out like roadkill on the ground and stretched like gum, occasionally moving an ear. Only the cubs and the one year olds had the energy to play...

[lynn cates]

possible

Hello Maria.

"Then you must possibly connect the murders of Eddowes and Kelly?"

Yes, possibly.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Lynn and Tom:
I agree with Tom on this, Lynn. Stride might have worked on Fashion Street AND pretended she lived there as well, to give the impression of a better social situation. It's a trick used by teenagers in many movies, if any of you has ever seen Fame or Pretty in pink, etc.. (Where a person walks up to a “fancy“, rich-looking building and pretends to search for their keys, until the person to be fooled leaves the premises.)

To Abby Normal:
Hello Aby,
I very much agree with you in a scenario where the Ripper was pretending to be a well-off john, offering “unfortunates“ goodies such as bonnets, flowers, cachous (perhaps even grapes? probably not, Tom!!). But I don't think that Stride would have needed too much persuasion or drink to have accepted to offer her favours to any man willing to pay the standard fee – her financial situation was deplorable, and she had just left the residence she shared with Kidney. Nor do I believe that any “affection“ for Kidney might have brought up any hesitation. She was used to prostituting herself during her entire relationship with Kidney. She knew it was either that, or begging at the different Swedish churches (as she also did), or starve (which she probably had also experienced in depth).
According to more experienced Ripperologists, the woman who said “Not tonight, some other night“ was apparently someone else than Stride. – Can you corroborate this, please, Fisherman? About the other couple on the streets that night? It's you who brought my attention upon this (on another thread).
As for "You would say anything but your prayers.", in my opinion this was pronounced at the initial state of the encounter. It's a seemingly benign, flirtatious joke, hiding a lot of hostility and rage inside, and it totally could have been declared by the Ripper himself. (In my opinion.)

[Fisherman]

MAria:

"Did shoulderpadded jackets (as you hypothesized that BS might have been wearing one) exist in 1888?"

I really could not say, Maria. My guess is that they have been around from time to time in history, but if 1888 was one of those times, I don´t know. I just wanted to point to the possibility that the design of the jacket may have contributed in some fashion to an impression of broad shoulders.
What I DO know is that tight-fitting jackets were fashionable back then, but that does not help much, I´m afraid.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"Hello Fish. Permit a slight emendation. If i recall, Tanner and Lane indicated that Liz was seen on Fashion st as she worked there."

Tanner: "She told me that she was at work among the Jews, and was living with a man in Fashion Street"

Lane: "I used to see her frequently in Fashion Street, where she lived"

From the inquest, Lynn! TWO corroborating voices, that is - no mistake, in other words.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Stride might have worked on Fashion Street AND pretended she lived there as well, to give the impression of a better social situation."

If she wanted to feign a better social situation, Maria, Fashion Street would have been about the worst choice. It was not as if it was classy ground ...

The best,
Fisherman
retiring for the evening

[mariab]

shoulder pads!

To Fisherman:
One thing I know about tight-fitting jackets, they make shoulders look thinner, not thicker. But Kidney's sketch doesn't picture a particularly tight-fitting jacket, so it can't simply have been the jacket.
The “Musée de la mode et du textile“ is just a few blocs from my apartment in Paris, somewhere on the rue de Rivoli, close to the Louvre. Maybe they have info on the history of shoulder pads. I've always wanted to visit this museum, but never found the time.
I've just checked in Wikipedia (admittingly not the most reliable source), and it says that shoulder pads on womens clothing started in the 1930's with the designer Elsa Schiapparelli and Joan Crawford wearing shoulder pads. I TOTALLY thought of that a minute ago, recalling the 1930s black and white film The women and how they were dressed. It was the decade where women started owning property, divorcing, and keeping property after the divorce, which reflected in this new way of “power clothing“. As for men, Wikipedia says that they were wearing shoulder pads exclusively in sport clothing, and only since the early 20th century. So my eyes probably have not deceived me when looking at 19th/18th/17th century paintings and clothing.

[lynn cates]

trick

Hello Maria.

"I agree with Tom on this, Lynn. Stride might have worked on Fashion Street AND pretended she lived there as well, to give the impression of a better social situation. It's a trick used by teenagers in many movies,"

That's fine--and entirely possible. I have no information to base this on other than what's in the paper.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mea culpa

Hello Fish. You are right; I am mistaken. Es tut mir leid, mein Freund.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Lynn and Fisherman:
Then Fashion Street was not “fashionable“? Obviously I know very little about Whitechapel social geography. (Ask me about Paris or Naples, that I know.) I think I got this information from Tom Wescott in Examiner 1, so it's him who should enligthen us about this/corroborate the info.
After a shower and some Paracetamol (high temperature, but not a burning fever), I'm about to loose conciousness. No idea why I'm so exhausted, since I haven't been overexerting myself. Probably the stress, the new impressions...
Goodnight from ZA and

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"Then Fashion Street was not “fashionable“?"

Here´s the answer to that one, Maria:

"Fashion Street
London E1 (Spitalfields)
Thoroughfare running east-west from Brick Lane to Commercial Street. Fashion Street marks the northern boundary of the original Fossan Estate, owned by brothers Thomas and Lewis Fossan. The southern side was laid out c.1655 and it was originally known as Fossan Street, which was later corrupted to Fashion. The northern side was built by trustees of the Wheler estate in about 1669. White's Row was at one time depicted as a natural continuation of the street and was known as New Fashion Street in the 17th century.
By the late-Victorian era, Fashion Street had fallen into decline alongside other streets on the estate and was considered part of the area's worst slums, especially the south side which was connected to notorious Flower and Dean Street by a number of squalid courts and passages. There were also pubs at each end of the street; the Queen's Head on the northern corner with Commercial Street, the 'George and Guy' on the northern corner with Brick Lane and the 'Three Cranes' opposite - none of these premises are now pubs. It was also home to the Fashion Street Sphardish Synagogue in New Court which had around 80 members and closed c.1906."

So much for that, I´m afraid - it was one of the worst streets in the area, Maria. So, like I said, Stride - or anybody else - would not be bragging about her connections to Fashion Street. It would in no way brush up on her appearance, not in the least, so that was not what was going on, as suggested. And still, she told Lane and Tanner (and probably anybody who would lend her an ear) that she lived with a man in Fashion Street. This begs an answer!

By the way, thanks for the info on shoulder pads, Maria. I find it hard sometimes to get good information about the garments worn in the East end in 1888. The West end is thoroughly documented, and all the finery of the people living there has been saved for museums and such. But the conditions of the poor, everyday working class Eastender are not nearly as well documented.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal writes:

"what Lawende might have seen was JtR (BS man) ... Thoughts?"

Just the one: Lawendes man was described as a shabby looking guy, whereas the Star report tells us that Schwartz described BS as a respectabel looking man. And if BS and Marshalls man are one and the same, then he gave the appearance of a clerk, whereas Lawendes guy had a distinct sailorlike appearance.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

There are clerks in the navy.

Mike, just trying to muddle