Was Liz Stride's scarf used by her murderer?

[Hunter]

This subject has been discussed in piecemeal fashion on other threads but I thought, since it has garnered renewed interest, it may deserve its own thread.

Mariab has asked about Elizabeth's scarf.

Was it used by her killer as a garrot?

If Liz was strangled, did the scarf protect her neck from marks?

Did the killer use the scarf to pull her back?

Did he lift her head by the knot to facillitate cutting her throat?

[lynn cates]

demo

Hello Hunter. An excellent question. Of course, what usually happens at this point is that one side says "Yes," the other "No."

I would suggest that, instead of an acrimonious argument, each side make a short demo film clip. You will need a willing lady wearing a scarf and holding a packet of cachous. (If cachous are unavailable, you can burn half a dozen matches and snip off the tips--they look, feel and approximate the size and shape of the cachous.) You will also need a paper knife and a mattress on which the lady is to be "Laid down gently."

The rules are:

1. cachous cannot be spilled

2. body must lie just as it was found in Dutfield's yard.

I think this experiment will be most revealing.

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi all,

I don't have volunteers for the experiment , so I'll just describe what I've always read and believed: The killer used the scarf to pull Liz' head back and expose her throat. Probably her knees buckled due to the sudden pull. The bottom edge of the scarf showed signs of being cut at the same time as the throat, following the same pattern.

It sounds quite logical to me.

Greetings,

Addy

[Fisherman]

Hunter asks:

"Did he lift her head by the knot to facillitate cutting her throat?"

That never was the suggestion, I believe - what Tom Wescott says is that he lifted the head by the part of the scarf that was situated directly opposite to the knot - that is by the portion covering her right side of the neck.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"The rules are:

1. cachous cannot be spilled

2. body must lie just as it was found in Dutfield's yard.

I think this experiment will be most revealing."

It will indeed, Lynn!

The best,
Fisherman

[Adam Went]

According to some comments on the scarf that i've read, it was supposedly not thick/strong enough to be used by itself to strangle Liz, atleast not without a large degree of difficulty. Personally I tend to lean more towards what you yourself say Addy, and/or the hands of JTR were placed over the scarf in order to strangle Liz into unconsciousness.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fisherman]

Adam Went writes:

"According to some comments on the scarf that i've read, it was supposedly not thick/strong enough to be used by itself to strangle Liz"

A chequered silk scarf. That is all we know about the garment in question. We do not have itīs size, itīs thickness, itīs age etcetera. But we DO have the knowledge that a thin silk string is lethal in the hands of a garotter. Make of that what you want, Adam! Those who say that the scarf was not strong enough to kill with may need to substantiat that wiew, and doing so they may need to take a look at, for example, how many women have been strangled with their own nylon pantyhoses, a much weaker and thinner and more frail material. But you can garotte a gorilla with it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Marc]

1. cachous cannot be spilled

Lynn,
Don't want to sound acrymonious but could have Liz clenched her fist in reflex ?

Otherwise, I'm not sure I could convince my wife to get involved in this experience (she might think I really want to kill her ) yet I can source a steady supply of cachous, these are on sale in most gas stations over here.
Combined orders for casebook members can be arranged

[lynn cates]

experiment

Hello Fish. Thanks. Although I've done this a hundred times mentally and once or twice physically, I have found no reason to disagree substantively with your analysis. But now, for the cameras!

After reading several posts, it seems some evince a concern for strangling into unconsciousness. I must have missed that part of the inquest. If Liz were strangled would not her tongue protrude?

I prefer the medical examiner's take that the entire sequence lasted 2-3 seconds.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

take down

Hello Adam. Why must Liz be strangled with the scarf? Why could she not be merely thrown off balance and rotated about 150 degrees, her throat cut, and she be laid gently down?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

reflex

Hello Marc. Could it be reflex to clench her fist? Absolutely! In fact, I insist upon it. As soon as her assailant grabbed her scarf, I maintain that she clenched her fists and brought them upwards towards the throat, reflexively, in order to free herself and her breathing. (I hope this part will be included in our experiment!)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"After reading several posts, it seems some evince a concern for strangling into unconsciousness. I must have missed that part of the inquest. If Liz were strangled would not her tongue protrude?
I prefer the medical examiner's take that the entire sequence lasted 2-3 seconds."

So do I, Lynn - the cut killed her, the garotting sequence only silenced her as she was thrown off balance and flung to the ground. She was not strangled to death, but she was choked hard enough for her to clench her fist and hold on to the cachous throughout her fall. Then, when cut and left on the ground to die, her hands relaxed a bit. Thatīs how I see it.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

having a fling

Hello Fish. I entirely agree, except I'm not sure she needed to be flung. She could be merely "Laid down gently" after her throat was cut.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Absolutely, Lynn - nothing spoke of any violence, according to Lamb, and the clothing was not disarrayed. So it could well be that he kept his grip on the scarf throughout her fall and let her slump into position. Good call!

The best,
Fisherman

[Marc]

As soon as her assailant grabbed her scarf, I maintain that she clenched her fists and brought them upwards towards the throat, reflexively, in order to free herself and her breathing. (I hope this part will be included in our experiment!)

Hi Lynn,
Thanks for the update
Walking on thin ice here, but I was under the impression that
someone trying to get rid of a something griped around his/her neck would rather spread his/her fingers to try to grab it.
Anyway, since I've never been strangled until now and not
being an expert in forensic, I'm clueless about this stuff.

May be she tried to hit her attacker with her clenched fists ?
Perhaps this wouldn't be a reflex move then, but rather some street
fighting trick she might have learned through her years in the East End ?