Was Liz Stride's scarf used by her murderer?

[GregBaron]

Scarf etc..........

I just posted this on the examiner thread but perhaps it's more appropriate here...........


Hi All,

Interesting discussion concerning the logistics of Stride's demise. This may be daft but I thought
I'd offer some amateurish observations...........

On to our ever over discussed arterial spray....if attacked from behind and sliced on the way down I would think
the dress and perhaps stones would indicate this splatter....I don't really know the blood evidence but I seem to
recall a flow down the gutter that might support a slice while prone.......

This needn't dismiss Mr. Fisherman's assertion of the from behind attack, perhaps she was leaving dismissively or
preparing for from behind sex but here is where the chokehold or stranglehold discussed on another thread would
come in handy. If he puts her in the triangular elbow to the sternum chokehold he may have her passed out in seconds
and the mysterious fainting spell is unnecessary. This appears to be what was done with at least some of the others.
He puts her in the chokehold, lies her down, grabs her scarf to distend the throat and then slices. This chokehold,
with the pressured triangle could also possibly explain the chest brusing as the elbow could be pushing hard towards
the sternum. This would also leave little evidence about the throat but could explain the tight fisted cachous.....



Greg

[lynn cates]

speed

Hello Marc. Although I don't think anything should be ruled out, I think there must be great speed employed by whatever Liz did. After all, if the medical examiner is correct, it all was over in 2-3 seconds.

Cheers.
LC

[Marc]

I think there must be great speed employed by whatever Liz did.

Yes Lynn, in relation with her attacker own swiftness which still amazes me.
His skill in 'dispatching' an individual so quickly and silently is truely impressive.
Makes me think about the number of rounds an amateur usually shot at his/her victim while a professional only need a couple of these, if not just one.

[lynn cates]

test run

Hello Marc. We just did 2 test runs of the scarf episode. It worked exceptionally well. The scarf's knot was tightened and to the left at the end of the reenactment.

One caveat: the body must be rotated at least 30-45 degrees to the left at the beginning of the sequence. Else, the body will go straight back and cutting will be awkward (to say nothing of the arterial spray jetting about).

(Don't worry--my wife was not seriously injured. I also wanted to see if the scarf would cause silence as proposed by way of question by Baxter. Silent? My wife?)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

The alternative theories as have been demonstrated create more problems than they do provide solutions. The only practical solution (not possible, but practical) is that he scarf was not tightened until she was unconscious on the ground, and only then for the practical purpose of leverage, to hold her head up and in place as he drew the knife along her throat. That's it. Her tiny silk scarf was not used to strangle her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Once again, Tom - you do not know, I do not know, Lynn Cates does not know and the emperor of Japan do not know the size of that scarf.
But you, me, Lynn and the emperor of Japan can all easily see in the sources that itīs size was enough to reach around her neck, and after that there need not be any other questions asked than those of the elasticity and durabilty of the material. And when we do ask those questions, we immediately find that silk is a very, very strong thread, easily enough to choke the life out of any human being if pulled tight around the neck.

Now, unless you claim that there were regulations about, allowing only for certain sizes of Victorian chequered silk scarves, this is a pointless discussion. And even if you DID find such a regulation, all it would tell us would be either A/ That the doctors were correct in naming it a handkerchief scarf, since such a scarf would be long enough to reach all the way around the neck of a woman, and thus be a potentially lethal device, or B/ That the doctors ought to have called it something else than a handkerchief scarf - but that would in no way change the obvious fact that it DID reach around Strides neck, thus being, guess what: exactly - a potentially lethal device! ANY strong enough material encircling the neck of a living creature has this quality. That is why cats get hanged and killed from tree branches by their collars, thatīs why kids die by means of strangulation produced from their bicycle helmet straps if unlucky and thatīs why the garotte was once invented: encircle the neck, and you have your killing device. Actually, if you allow for a little bit of a poetic reformulation and if you see the obvious strength of this argument, that is also why your suggestion about handkerchief scarves being useless killing tools was just done to death by means of logical garotting ...!

What you need to take a look at is the Casebook examiner 2 thread, where I present a few things that go to show that the only one who is endorsing a faulty scenario in the scarf case is you - what you suggest simply does not work, Tom, and you can easily confirm that by a very simple test.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

The argument i've made is flawless because the fact allows it to be so. It's the only practical explanation. I must question why you're so adamant to endorse an unlikely, inferior version of events, unless you're wanting some sort of pissing contest with me.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

I always preferred plain and simple truth to cloudier versions just as I always preferred well grounded and researched suggestions to the opposite. Pissing contests are of no interest to me whatsoever.

If you can prove that a knotted silk scarf, long enough to encircle a womans neck, cannot be used as a throttling/strangling/choking device, please do so.

And if you can prove that a knotted scarf tied around a cylindrical object will have itīs knot pulled as hard by your lifting method applied from the exact opposite side of the knot as it will by mine, by using a garotting handgrip from a distance much closer to the knot, please do so.

If you can supply such proof, you will be doing serious work instead of suggesting pissing contests, a not very productive line of research. If you cannot, I suggest to go back to the drawing board before proclaiming quite obviously flawed suggestions "the only practical explanation".

Iīm off for tonight, Tom. Iīll try to get some sleep now, though itīs hotter than hell even here in Sweden ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I always preferred plain and simple truth to cloudier versions just as I always preferred well grounded and researched suggestions to the opposite.

I could not agree more, which is why your obstinance confuses me. But you're missing the point. The point is why would Stride's killer try to choke her with a silk scarf instead of his hands, or any one of a dozen other, better methods? And why does the crime scene evidence contradict your theory - i.e. no struggle, cachous in hand.

Oddly enough, our theories at this juncture do not conflict, because mine begins after she's already unconscious and on the ground. I'm not in a position to say how the killer subdued her, I can only guess. But I know when happened after she hit the ground. It's plain as day.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

Lynn & Fisher:

Just getting briefly back to your earlier posts regarding using the scarf to throw Liz off balance and/or strangle her with, I actually did used to be more of the opinion that it was used to strangle her with, but as I said, some comments about it not being thick/tight enough to have been able to do that sort of threw me off a bit, plus the fact that even if it was got slightly wrong by JTR then it would have given Liz the chance to call out for help or attempt some sort of defence - especially given she was sober at the time.

I don't think it was used to merely swing her round and then cut her throat, it's more likely that she was strangled into unconsciousness first, which probably means that the killer placed his hands over the scarf in order to do so - if the throat had been cut prior to her being strangled, there would have been much more blood spatter in the passageway than there was as well.

Cheers,
Adam.

[lynn cates]

demo

Hello Adam. If Liz had been strangled, would not her tongue protrude and/or have abrasions as with Polly and Annie?

As I noted, the dress rehearsals worked exceptionally well. I hope to shoot some film soon.

I look forward to your demo.

Cheers.
LC

[Adam Went]

Lynn:

If Liz had been strangled, would not her tongue protrude and/or have abrasions as with Polly and Annie?

Alternatively, if she was not strangled first, would she not have had time to call out or make a defence? Also, why no larger amount of blood spatter if that was the case? Bear in mind that if JTR cut her throat while she was still fully conscious, he would have had the knife in one hand, meaning he had to hold her down and prevent her from defending/yelling with just one hand, not to mention have to make the lethal cut properly with the other hand - really very likely? Especially with Liz sober? Moments after she'd called out while being attacked on the street? I'd say not.

I look forward to your demo.

I'm presuming that's directed at somebody else?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

" ... you're missing the point. The point is why would Stride's killer try to choke her with a silk scarf instead of his hands, or any one of a dozen other, better methods?"

The point here, Tom, was never why he would use the scarf. The point is that you claim that he COULD not have strangled her with the scarf. Letīs not forget that, for that is what I would like to have an explanation to.

As for your new claim - that there would have been "a dozen" better methods to choke her by - I think that carries very limited value. If a victim is accomodating enough to put a noose in the shape of a strong silk scarf around her neck, then I fail to see how that could be - at the very best - option number thirteen. Letīs be a bit realistic, Tom, please!
We are also faced with the fact (!) that the knot was pulled very hard, and as I have shown, that would not have come about by lifting her head by the scarf. She WAS choked by means of her scarf, and since no mentioning was made about the scarf itself having been found tightened around the neck, it stands to reason that the knot was pulled hard by somebody who gripped the scarf, twisted or pulled it very hard, and then let go of it. I opt for a twisting to the left, since that offers a neat explanation to the position she ended up in.
Another thing to consider is that I mean that he gripped her scarf with her left hand and his own knife with the right one, and even you must admit that in such a situation, it would be very hard to strangle her with his hands, since just the one hand was free!

"why does the crime scene evidence contradict your theory - i.e. no struggle, cachous in hand."

Once again, Tom: the fact that the cachous were still in her hand when she was found means that YOUR version, with a fainting Stride, is the version that contradicts the physical laws. She would reasonably have dropped the cachous if she fainted. No other suggestion holds any water at all, I feel. In my scenario, the intermittent choking causes her to clench her hands as she falls. She is cut during her fall, her killer lets go of his grip on the scarf, and her hands loosen, the right one completely, hanging over the lower part of her chest, and the left one less so, with a faint grip still remaining on the cachous packet.
As for the lack of any struggle, I think you know my wiew full well. There NEVER was much of a real tussle between the two, since they were aquintances/lovers. He tried to pull her away from soliciting outside the yard, and she resisted, resulting in her fall on Berner Street. In order to stay away from any curious bypassers, she takes him with her into the relative privacy of the yard to tell him off. She ends the low-keyed exchange by saying tht she wants no more of him, turns her back on him and aims for the yard entrance. And as she turns that back on him, he pulls his knife out of his pocket and stretches out his left hand and grabs her by the scarf, twists it hard to the left, pulling her off balance, cutting her as she falls.
Now, can you see any place where there should be any loud voices around? Any struggle? Any hullaballoo at all? I canīt, for sure. They would have taken measures to avoid exactly that by keeping their voices low and going about things discretely. And therefore, contrary to your claim, it washes perfectly with my scenario.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Adam Went writes:

"I actually did used to be more of the opinion that it was used to strangle her with, but as I said, some comments about it not being thick/tight enough to have been able to do that sort of threw me off a bit"

It really shouldnīt have, Adam. A thin string of silk is enough for strangling, and a silk scarf is immensely strong even if it is only handkerchief size! It is not very elastic, and you can apply enormous power by twisting it - more than enough to kill with.

"even if it was got slightly wrong by JTR then it would have given Liz the chance to call out "

Well, to begin with, JTR was never there in my opinion but that aside, your argument is a strange one. Of course Stride could have called out if the killer did not get things right - but I think that the fact that we have no such thing on record points to him getting things right. And how hard can it be? Once you grip the scarf, all you have to do to start blocking airways and blood passage is to twist. Itīs not like balancing three balls on a pointed pole, is it?

"if the throat had been cut prior to her being strangled, there would have been much more blood spatter in the passageway than there was as well."

If the throat had been cut first, why would he add strangling to it afterwards at all...? What I am saying is that he gripped the scarf, twisted it, pulling her off balance, and AS SHE FELL, he cut her. As the cut came at a late stage, the opening in her neck and the left artery faced the spot onto which she fell, and therefore, whatever blood escaped her before she hit the ground, was later joined by and disguised by the later bloodflow.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

There are more ways than one to wear a handkerchief around the neck.Loosely,loose half knot,and full knot are three that come to mind.To be pulled backward by the handkerchief one would think a full knotted one was being worn,as pressure on the other two kinds would just pull the handkerchief free.Still she was found with a Handkerchief knotted tightly around the neck,and Blackwells notion of being pulled is only an opinion,so when did it become knotted?,and how come the collar of her jacket was not grasped at the same time,if Stride was pulled backwards?