Lipski

[Abby Normal]

It was Bagster Phillips John. The physician who saw Polly, Annie, Liz and Kate in person during the autopsies. He saw obvious differences with Liz Strides wounds, and differences in the wounds Kate had from those of the first 2 Canonicals. Ill see if I can find it while here at work, if not I have it at home on my pc. Ill get back to you.

Who the heck is barrister Phillips John? I swear another name keeps popping up in ripperology every day?!?

[c.d.]

Perhaps someone can answer this -- was Phillips ever asked what could account for those differences other than a different killer?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Again I would just emphasize that none of the doctors who gave an opinion were experts as we think of the term today nor were they hard pressed with respect to their opinions.

c.d.

[John G]

It was Bagster Phillips John. The physician who saw Polly, Annie, Liz and Kate in person during the autopsies. He saw obvious differences with Liz Strides wounds, and differences in the wounds Kate had from those of the first 2 Canonicals. Ill see if I can find it while here at work, if not I have it at home on my pc. Ill get back to you.

Thanks Michael. I'm a little intrigued because Dr Phillips didn't testify at the Eddowes inquest. Nor was he present at Nichols autopsy-that was carried out by Dr Llewellyn.

[Darryl Kenyon]

To be fair to the physicians back then they didn't have the experience of serial killers as there is today. So any differences within the series of murders to them, might make them think different killers.

[The Good Michael]

To be fair to the physicians back then they didn't have the experience of serial killers as there is today. So any differences within the series of murders to them, might make them think different killers.

They also perhaps each wanted to be the "expert" on such things, making them look for ways to differ and to cancel out other "experts". There wasn't enough expertise to show any of them to be incorrect.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Thanks Michael. I'm a little intrigued because Dr Phillips didn't testify at the Eddowes inquest. Nor was he present at Nichols autopsy-that was carried out by Dr Llewellyn.

As I recall John it was a response to a reporters question, still haven't searched my home pc for the specific source.

The opinions of the physicians closest to the actual victims in the flesh are for me more reliable. I believe that First hand observation supersedes abilities to interpret something that someone else experienced and documented.

Phillips saw the most Canonicals. I haven't read anything that discredits his opinions, other than perhaps Bond... in comments on what he saw as the skill exhibited in all 5 Canonicals, so that's why Ive taken the position that we can safely remove Liz Stride from the Canonicals, and start to deal with a Single Ripper Event...perhaps influenced by the earlier event.

[c.d.]

The opinions of the physicians closest to the actual victims in the flesh are for me more reliable. I believe that First hand observation supersedes abilities to interpret something that someone else experienced and documented.

Phillips saw the most Canonicals. I haven't read anything that discredits his opinions, other than perhaps Bond... in comments on what he saw as the skill exhibited in all 5 Canonicals, so that's why Ive taken the position that we can safely remove Liz Stride from the Canonicals, and start to deal with a Single Ripper Event...perhaps influenced by the earlier event.

Hello Michael,

Phillips could be correct the problem however is that we do not know the details of how he arrived at his conclusion and just how qualified he was to give an opinion other than being a doctor present at the time. I think it would be a stretch to remove Stride from the Canonicals based primarily on his opinion.

c.d.

[John G]

Hello Michael,

Phillips could be correct the problem however is that we do not know the details of how he arrived at his conclusion and just how qualified he was to give an opinion other than being a doctor present at the time. I think it would be a stretch to remove Stride from the Canonicals based primarily on his opinion.

c.d.

Hello c.d.,

And, of course, Dr Bond believed that both McKenzie and Stride were victims of JtR.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

Phillips could be correct the problem however is that we do not know the details of how he arrived at his conclusion and just how qualified he was to give an opinion other than being a doctor present at the time. I think it would be a stretch to remove Stride from the Canonicals based primarily on his opinion.

c.d.

My reasons for wanting Stride excluded are based on a number of factors cd, including the physicians opinions. Phillips saw "great dissimilarity" with the wounds inflicted on Stride, and with the absence of any evidence that her murder was intended to have moved on to mutilation, that's, for me, fairly compelling. I believe the only reason most people leave Stride in the mix is because of timing and geography. My position is that there were plenty of men within the East End or reach of it that were capable of murder and cruelty, whomever killed Polly and Annie...and perhaps Kate, was a different animal than those men. So was the Torso maker. Those differences should be present in any kills attributed to him(them), whether or not the specific actions taken match precisely.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello c.d.,

And, of course, Dr Bond believed that both McKenzie and Stride were victims of JtR.

Which brings up my earlier point about which sources we can trust the most. My point is that Phillips is that source, absent of any public or professional criticisms, he saw 4 Canonicals in death, was consulted on the 5th, and was present for Alices examination.

Phillips did not see the same knife skills with Alice, nor with Liz. Nor...once I can find it....with Kates wounds.

[John G]

Which brings up my earlier point about which sources we can trust the most. My point is that Phillips is that source, absent of any public or professional criticisms, he saw 4 Canonicals in death, was consulted on the 5th, and was present for Alices examination.

Phillips did not see the same knife skills with Alice, nor with Liz. Nor...once I can find it....with Kates wounds.

The knife skills that he perceived in respect of Chapman related to the removal of the uterus. As regards McKenzie and Stride, no organs were removed and therefore no direct comparison is possible.

[Michael W Richards]

The knife skills that he perceived in respect of Chapman related to the removal of the uterus. As regards McKenzie and Stride, no organs were removed and therefore no direct comparison is possible.

I would disagree with that John. I think when a cut is made by someone who has training in the manner in which cuts are to be made when performing surgery on human anatomy, not only the cut but also the evidence left by the tool used can be helpful when making a final determination.

Are we talking very sharp longish blade, or a pen knife? Are the incisions and... if present..., are the excisions done confidently or are the cuts ragged? Things like that.

Kates killer left a bit of the kidney, a stump of a uterus, a sectioned colon, and knife traces around a navel and some facial features. Annies killer seemed to have targeted what was taken based on the manner in which he approached the cutting, and it was excised cleanly. No superfluous cutting. No tracing around cartilage. No effort wasted disfiguring the face. No mistakes like cutting into a colon and releasing some excrement.

I am suggesting that the methodology used on Annie should be present in varying degrees in later kills. Some would agree citing the stomach flaps taken from Mary, but that specific action had been in print in large circulation shortly before the act in Room 13 took place, and therefore it cannot be ruled out as having perhaps inspired it.

[Joshua Rogan]

Michael, your comparison - like the Ripper's surgery - seems to contain a few errors.
Neither was a model of surgical precision and technique, but Kate's kidney was entirely missing - "carefully taken out and removed" according to Dr Brown.
Kate's killer left a stump of womb, Annie's left a third of the bladder. Both had their colon cut through; Kate twice, seemingly in order to remove it (giving better access to the kidney), Annie once, apparently unintentionally. Kate's navel was partially cut around, Annie's totally cut around (and seemingly taken away by the killer). It's true that Kate's killer didn't cut flaps of her abdominal wall away like Annie's, but then he didn't need to - he was able to remove her intestines in exactly the same way even without doing so. Perhaps he used the time saved there to attack her face for whatever reason.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, your comparison - like the Ripper's surgery - seems to contain a few errors.
Neither was a model of surgical precision and technique, but Kate's kidney was entirely missing - "carefully taken out and removed" according to Dr Brown.
Kate's killer left a stump of womb, Annie's left a third of the bladder. Both had their colon cut through; Kate twice, seemingly in order to remove it (giving better access to the kidney), Annie once, apparently unintentionally. Kate's navel was partially cut around, Annie's totally cut around (and seemingly taken away by the killer). It's true that Kate's killer didn't cut flaps of her abdominal wall away like Annie's, but then he didn't need to - he was able to remove her intestines in exactly the same way even without doing so. Perhaps he used the time saved there to attack her face for whatever reason.

I disagree with your opinion of Annies cuts, as did Doctor Phillips...."Dr. Phillips: "Very well. I will give you the results of my post-mortem examination. Witness then detailed the terrible wounds which had been inflicted upon the woman, and described the parts of the body which the perpetrator of the murder had carried away with him. He added: I am of opinion that the length of the weapon with which the incisions were inflicted was at least five to six inches in length - probably more - and must have been very sharp. The manner in which they had been done indicated a certain amount of anatomical knowledge.
The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body".

After Annies murder, physicians and medical students were actively sought out by the police. That's the last murder that a skilled-with-knife killer seemed the most probable to the Police. Meaning, there was no return to that train of thought with Kates murder. Meaning...there was no compelling evidence that with Kate a medical grade skill set was used.

There is of course also a very possible symbolic aspect of removing a uterus that is not present with a kidney removal, as is there for a heart.

Kates wounds were not as skilled nor as targeted.