Did jack kill liz stride?

[Michael W Richards]

It may not be that simple, Harry. The statistics about manslaughter and murder are rather skewed, and not every such incident was reported in the press. Furthermore, it wasn't unknown for the authorities to "play down" the number of incidents on their territory, to make it appear that things were better than they actually were. And, don't forget, that many such incidents - which would otherwise have ended up as manslaughter or murder, but for the grace of God - were only recorded, if at all, as "assaults". Of these potential knife murders/manslaughter cases, how many were never reported out of fear, misplaced loyalty, or sheer embarrassment?

It's a very complex picture.

There were plenty of murders in London that year which could be seen as cruel or "evil", the characteristics of all "Jack" murders apparently. However, not all were in the East End, and not all were solved. Not all were with knives either

What people seem to accept without any substantiation is that a single mad killer must have killed the women who had their throats slit....again, a feature not exclusive to murder in the East End.

The reason Liz Stride was killed is unknown...its not "known" that she was a Canonical victim, its assumed.

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah but this is just speculation Sam.

It really isn't, Jeff. All such variables are important, and we must take them into account if we are to make any sense of this mystery. (Don't take my word for it; I got it from Richard Feynman.)

Hope you are well, too.

[Jeff Leahy]

I was referring to murders not of the Ripper's kind, Jeff. Knife murders, knife manslaughter, knife assaults that just stopped short of being fatal, and cases of all such incidents that were either unreported or unrecorded. I'd add to that cases where a knife was used in a threatening manner, but without injury, which could - if things boiled over - have resulted in a Stride-type incident. Taken together, this bundle of misery was not rare.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as we might think. We can't just limit ourselves to known murders; there's a bigger picture.

Yeah but this is just speculation Sam. We have know way of knowing how many people threatened someone and did nothing. How many people shouted at someone? Theres a huge difference between that and actually doing it.

Whoever cut Strides throat appears to have known what he was doing using considerable force. Enough force so she didn't even have time to let go of her cachous. Murders of this kind were Rare.

And as I said previously we have other examples of killers attacking more than once in an evening the Sally Anne Bowman case coming to mind.

I accept that Stride was not mutilated and thus is the weakest of the victims to some extent as Jacks MO was about attacking the female genitals. But if Swartz story was true then we do have a perfect reason for jacks apparent nervousness and choice to get out of Dutfeild yard.

Trusting you are well

Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Not really murders of this kind were rare. And double events are not exclusive to the JtR events of 1888

I was referring to murders not of the Ripper's kind, Jeff. Knife murders, knife manslaughter, knife assaults that just stopped short of being fatal, and cases of all such incidents that were either unreported or unrecorded. I'd add to that cases where a knife was used in a threatening manner, but without injury, which could - if things boiled over - have resulted in a Stride-type incident. Taken together, this bundle of misery was not rare.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as we might think. We can't just limit ourselves to known murders; there's a bigger picture.

[Jeff Leahy]

It may not be that simple, Harry. The statistics about manslaughter and murder are rather skewed, and not every such incident was reported in the press. Furthermore, it wasn't unknown for the authorities to "play down" the number of incidents on their territory, to make it appear that things were better than they actually were. And, don't forget, that many such incidents - which would otherwise have ended up as manslaughter or murder, but for the grace of God - were only recorded, if at all, as "assaults". Of these potential knife murders/manslaughter cases, how many were never reported out of fear, misplaced loyalty, or sheer embarrassment?

It's a very complex picture.

Not really murders of this kind were rare. And double events are not exclusive to the JtR events of 1888

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Seems to me that while the East End was a rough old dive, to put it mildly, the number of reported knife attacks against women weren't that high.

It may not be that simple, Harry. The statistics about manslaughter and murder are rather skewed, and not every such incident was reported in the press. Furthermore, it wasn't unknown for the authorities to "play down" the number of incidents on their territory, to make it appear that things were better than they actually were. And, don't forget, that many such incidents - which would otherwise have ended up as manslaughter or murder, but for the grace of God - were only recorded, if at all, as "assaults". Of these potential knife murders/manslaughter cases, how many were never reported out of fear, misplaced loyalty, or sheer embarrassment?

It's a very complex picture.

[Harry D]

Seems to me that while the East End was a rough old dive, to put it mildly, the number of reported knife attacks against women weren't that high. With that in mind, we're supposed to believe that another lady of the night has her throat slashed within an hour of Jack's latest victim, and the two are completely unrelated? I have a hard time buying that.

[Michael W Richards]

The term "copycat" killing does not apply in the case of Liz Stride, since someone had asked about that scenario.....the previous acts that were attributed to the same man that killed Stride were completely unlike Strides wounds, slitting a throat once is not what we would have expected from that same man. Despite that, many people still believe that she was killed by the same man, and some suspect she was killed by the same man Israel Schwartz claimed to have seen assaulting the woman minutes before she is murdered, who some also imagine was Jack the Ripper.

Obvious problems with both of those ideas, using only the physical evidence. But that hasn't stopped many from accepting them anyway.

If you fancy this Ripper fellow as Strides killer then you must have answers for some pertinent questions;

A) Explain the absence of any interaction with the dead woman by the killer after the single throat cut (Interruptions are only valid if indicated within the hard physical evidence, and they aren't in this case)

B) Explain, using other than gut feelings or case studies of modern, identified and interviewed serial killers...which may well have zero bearing on these cases, why Jack would change his MO.

C) Explain why Fanny Mortimer saw the young couple, and saw Leon Goldstein, but failed to see or hear Israel Schwartz's altercation and the 3 men supposedly involved. This has bearing on the validity of the Schwartz story...as does the absence of it at Inquest.

D) Why did the man who killed Polly and Annie venture so far South to find someone?

E)What evidence confirms that Liz Stride was not at that address to meet someone socially...or for cleaning work, which she had been doing for sometime regularly...among the Jews.

F) Based on the case studies published in Peter Stubleys "1888: London Murders in the Year of the Ripper", what is the likelihood that other killers were living in London at the same time Jack was killing. (No-one has proven he walked from his home to kill anyone, therefore the East End is not the only possible location of the killer). This answer is obvious.

G) How many Canonical Victims had a single cut injury?

A list of reasons why Stride was not likely killed by Jack, a proven mutilator, is long,.... the reasons for including her as a victim of Jacks are limited to 2. One, because someone else was killed the same night in a Ripper like fashion...hence the question as to the odds of 2 killers working on the same night. Two, because he might have been interrupted and as such unable to complete what we would expect from him. Unfortunately, the first reason is naïve...there were lots of men capable of and actually killing people in that same town at that same period in time, and there is no evidence at all that any interruption occurred.

Its just unsubstantiated "belief", not of making sense of any evidence.

The evidence says Liz was killed unlike any Canonical victim, and that women killed after that murder were killed in similar fashion to the first 2 Canonicals...leaving you with the unenviable position of explaining why Stride was his only "simple" murder.

Anyone could cut a throat with a single cut....few could excise a uterus cleanly and intact in near darkness.

Cheers

[Dane_F]

It was Mr. Phillips who commented on the knife in question. It was brought to him by PC Drage while he was examining Elizabeth Stride's body at the mortuary.

Thank you. I certainly wish we had more discussion about it. However, I fear there is no interest because it was found on a step hours (?) later.

Bill Beadle wrote an interesting piece on it, http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...ng-murder.html , and while he obviously makes some huge assumptions it seems that a weapon found that was actually brought up at a hearing should have more discussion on it here. Even if it is high odds not a weapon involved in the murder of Liz that night. Sadly, I do not know enough to even attempt to bring an argument forward for it.

[Hunter]

It was Mr. Phillips who commented on the knife in question. It was brought to him by PC Drage while he was examining Elizabeth Stride's body at the mortuary.

[Dane_F]

Barnaby, Hello. The graffiti honestly I don't know what to believe so I will leave that for a thread over there. I can understand them all being connected because of being the same night.

You know what I find interesting is the extreme lack of discussion about the bloody knife w/ the blood covered handkerchief found, if I'm remembering correctly, the next day. I don't know that I think it was actually the murder weapon used on Stride (though the coroner said it could have been but he personally would not have used it) but it seems that the place it was discovered causes nearly everyone to immediately dismiss it. Maybe I have missed the thread but I would like a bit more discussion about it personally.

Mr. Holmes, that certainly seems a fair assessment.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hi Dane,

I'm impressed that you read the thread. I couldn't do it. I skip around.

I share your beliefs. While there is no guarantee that the simplest theory is correct, and well-intentioned skeptics are an asset to any field, to me it does start to get less probable to posit multiple knife wielding killers operating so close to one another on the same night. And let's throw in a graffiti artist who chalks a message referencing Jews being blamed next to a bloody piece of Eddowes's skirt shortly after Stride was struck down in the yard next to a Jewish workers club. Maybe it is not all related, but one can see why it seemed to be for over a century!

Mr Barnaby, it is my belief that the same hand killed both women on the night of the "Double Event". The killings were too brutal not to be by the same killer, JtR or not, the same hand killed both women
Mr Holmes

[Barnaby]

Hi Dane,

I'm impressed that you read the thread. I couldn't do it. I skip around.

I share your beliefs. While there is no guarantee that the simplest theory is correct, and well-intentioned skeptics are an asset to any field, to me it does start to get less probable to posit multiple knife wielding killers operating so close to one another on the same night. And let's throw in a graffiti artist who chalks a message referencing Jews being blamed next to a bloody piece of Eddowes's skirt shortly after Stride was struck down in the yard next to a Jewish workers club. Maybe it is not all related, but one can see why it seemed to be for over a century!

[Dane_F]

Thank You Cog. I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees something as obvious.

Pinkmoon, I suspect the odds would be lower. Maybe if the first murder involved a gun or some other weapon I'd think the odds were higher. However the idea I seen mainly floated around was that of a "copycat" killing. To me, granted not having done the math on it, it would seem strictly from a probability standpoint same night, same area, within a couple of hours that greatly reduces the odds of two different people.

You do bring up an interesting point however. I will talk to some college math major friends of mine to see if there is an acceptable way to determine this probability.

Hunter, thank you. Maybe it is fresh eyes but I can honestly say I have no preconceived ideas of who I think did it. I can say with 100% that I'd be willing to be swayed in any direction given a valid argument. All I am doing now is simply trying to apply cold logic to each piece of the case I come across. Since I have no agenda it is really freeing to just accept the most logical explanation. I fear I might gain too much knowledge and become jaded. Lol

[Hunter]

Welcome to Casebook Dane. And my hat's off to you for wading through this long thread.

As far as your question is concerned... I believe presumptions have been made on both sides of the argument that have little to do with the evidence at hand... although many will proclaim that it does. In this field, a position is usually staked out before research is adequately done. And the simplest answer is not interesting enough.