Did jack kill liz stride?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Pinkmoon

Ever considered the possibility that Mr Diemschutz didn't just disturb our killer but actually saw him but didn't offer this information to the police

Not really - it's theoretically possible, I suppose, if the killer was someone known to Diemschutz, but rather unlikely - if for no other reasons than that (a) there's little or no time to collude and (b) we're assuming Louis would be prepared to effectively make himself a suspect in order to cover up for this aquaintance?

I've no axe either way to grind here...

I've no grounds to determine either an earlier (1245-ish) or later (1255-ish) time of death for Liz Stride, but have managed elsewhere to satisfy myself that either is possible within the strict confines of the medical evidence and available witness statements (depending upon quite what degree of reliability you attach to which witnesses of course).

Out of interest, where are you coming from?

All the best

Dave

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon



Not really - it's theoretically possible, I suppose, if the killer was someone known to Diemschutz, but rather unlikely - if for no other reasons than that (a) there's little or no time to collude and (b) we're assuming Louis would be prepared to effectively make himself a suspect in order to cover up for this aquaintance?

I've no axe either way to grind here...

I've no grounds to determine either an earlier (1245-ish) or later (1255-ish) time of death for Liz Stride, but have managed elsewhere to satisfy myself that either is possible within the strict confines of the medical evidence and available witness statements (depending upon quite what degree of reliability you attach to which witnesses of course).

Out of interest, where are you coming from?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave,nothing to sinister just that the killer might have had some connection to the club or to diemishultz himself never believed in the theory about revolutionarys trying to cause trouble by committing the murders then again the murders certainly stirred the public up.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bridewell,

You're displaying more than the usual amount of common sense this evening. Much appreciated.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Pinkmoon

A conspiracy concerning the club has been put forward by more than one poster. It was before my time, but I believe even Tom W looked into it at one point (but found nothing either way). Michael Richards, on the other hand, seems particularly convinced.

Personally I've found nothing at all to suggest it.

However, if it's something you're particularly interested in, then you could do worse than contact Lynn Cates, who I know is particularly interested in this aspect, and who is sensible

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Tom

The way I read it is she commented on the horse and cart passing, but I'm sure we'll not all fall out about it!

Yes.
And sadly no reason was given for her remark, however, we do read that Diemshitz doesn't normally come home at 1:00am - so maybe this was the cause of Mortimer's remark - he was early.

Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual...."
Star, 1st Oct.

[lynn cates]

club

Hello Jason, Dave. Thanks.

Yes, Tom suggested this long ago. If true, it would explain much.

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Clubs

Hi All,
I have always thought there could be a connection with Jack and The Jewish clubs.

On the night of the double event there were two Jewish clubs near murder sites, with stragglers leaving at the time of both murders.
Considering witness statements said there were not many people around, I think the likelyhood of the murderer having been at one or both of the clubs is greater.

Pat

[Paddy]

Kosher Rum

Can any of you tell me if there was a black market for Kosher Rum?
Did any of the clubs dabble in this trade does anyone know?

Thanks
Pat................

[Tom_Wescott]

Can any of you tell me if there was a black market for Kosher Rum?
Did any of the clubs dabble in this trade does anyone know?

Thanks
Pat................

They sold beer and cigarettes without a license, but I'm not certain about rum.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jason, Dave. Thanks.

Yes, Tom suggested this long ago. If true, it would explain much.

Cheers.
LC

Hi,could Mr Diemschutz be the Jew who refused to testify against a fellow Jew it is quite possible that he saw our killer also Mr Diemshutz dosnt appear to be an angel he was arrested a year later for assaulting a police officer.

[c.d.]

This club conspiracy business reminds me a lot of the JFK assassination theories. If an individual or group had both motive and means then they just ABSOLUTELY had to have done it.

c.d.

[DRoy]

Key word is 'estimate'. You're forging no new ground here, DRoy. Same nonsense has been spouted a thousand times. Schwartz did see Pipeman who did see BS Man who did see Schwartz. Mortimer saw Goldstein who did say he was there. Mortimer heard Diemshitz at the time he said he came home. Brown saw Stride with a man standing in the same spot that Schwartz found him a minute or two later. In fact, I'd expect more incongruities than what we see here considering how many people were involved. But everyone who should have seen so and so, apparently did see so and so.

Are you going to bring up the 'young couple' that I've already proved were nowhere near the scene at 12:45? I've shown that time and time again and yet it's conveniently ignored by those who'd rather tell stories than do research. I hope you're not part of that group.

You can imagine all the intrigue you want...there's plenty of it in other Ripper murders...but it's not here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

My comments stem from the fact that I believe Schwartz's story was proven incorrect somehow/someway.

I'm not on board with a club conspiracy as there is no evidence to support it at this time. I do however hope there is more research done on the club.

You may have the answers to Stride's murder but until I get to read your much anticipated book, I'll have to speculate based on the info I have today.

Cheers
DRoy

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

My comments stem from the fact that I believe Schwartz's story was proven incorrect somehow/someway.

I'm not on board with a club conspiracy as there is no evidence to support it at this time. I do however hope there is more research done on the club.

You may have the answers to Stride's murder but until I get to read your much anticipated book, I'll have to speculate based on the info I have today.

Cheers
DRoy

This explains why every time you post to me you accuse me of rampant speculation. A bit of projection, perhaps?

We have facts which are unchangeable but require 'interpretation'. There may be more than one possible interpretation to those facts, in which case the most likely should be proffered for until and unless additional facts come along which require amending the interpretation. Speculation is what we consider possible beyond but in addition to that interpretation.

So, based on the fact that Schwartz's story was still accepted by not just Swanson but Abberline more than two weeks after he gave evidence, on what interpretation of the facts do you base your speculation that Schwartz was dropped as a reliable witness by the police prior to Oct. 19th?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi,could Mr Diemschutz be the Jew who refused to testify against a fellow Jew it is quite possible that he saw our killer also Mr Diemshutz dosnt appear to be an angel he was arrested a year later for assaulting a police officer.

Hi Pink. All club members had renounced their Jewish faith and all belief in God, so that's unlikely.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[caz]

She hears a pony and cart pull in next door. A few minutes later she hears the cries of murder and learns that her neighbor pulled his pony and cart in a few minutes earlier and found a body. Not sure I see anything 'iffy' or suspicious about it. The woman added 2 and 2 and came up with 4. Some here are trying to add 2 and 2 but are coming up with 666.

Not 'some', Tom. Just the one I think. And he has the bloomin' sauce to accuse me and others of going beyond the 'evidence' because we cannot rule out Jack as Stride's killer.

The passing of the cart occurred about four minutes after Godstein passed by. Goldstein says he passed by shortly before 1am. Diemshitz says he discovered the body at 1am. The times add up perfectly, which is inconvenient for some theorists who want to believe that Diemshitz arrived much earlier than 1am, discovered the body, and plotted for ten minutes before announcing the discovery.

Quite so.

And sadly no reason was given for her remark, however, we do read that Diemshitz doesn't normally come home at 1:00am - so maybe this was the cause of Mortimer's remark - he was early.

Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual...."
Star, 1st Oct.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that. So he was already back earlier than usual, without Michael wanting to put the clock back another 20 minutes. And I doubt Diemshitz would have lied about the usual hours he kept, as this could easily have been contradicted.

The point that seems to have escaped Michael is that Mrs Mortimer only said she heard the one pony and cart, and this was shortly after going inside for the night around 1am. And Diemshitz very definitely arrived back at some point. So unless he is meant to have tiptoed past, between 12.40 and 12.45, with pony and cart slung round his shoulders, Mortimer could hardly have missed his arrival at that earlier time, but heard someone else's cart passing later, roughly coinciding with the time Diemshitz gave.

Assuming Mortimer did hear a pony and cart passing (and did remark upon it to her husband), the only reasonable conclusion is that this was Diemshitz, back earlier than usual, and they both believed the time to be around 1am.

Oh and before Michael comes back with any smart alec suggestions to wise up and accept that no ripping means no ripper, I'd just like to point out that his most recent efforts have resulted in the number of exclusionists remaining stubbornly at 35, while the number of inclusionists has risen from 70 to 74.

Love,

Caz
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