Did jack kill liz stride?

[Fisherman]

Observer:
I'm no medical expert, but I'm assuming that Liz Stride's heart would have taken more time to cease than Polly Nichols.

Not only that, Observer - you are also apparently assuming that Nicholsīheart would stop more or less immediately upon being cut never to twitch the slightest after that. Without being any expert, that is.

"May have felt", being the operative words here. I believe Polly Nichols was long gone, still, silent, beyond repair, stone dead, by the time Cross, and Paul found her.

I know. And I also know that you ground this assumption on no evidence at all. Plus I know you are welcome to it - I assume that she was anything but long gone, and I do so on meagre evidence too. But at least there IS some evidence supporting my take, the warm body, the twitch Paul felt, the blood that was flowing as both Neil and Mizen saw her.

Gone she may have been - but she may NOT have been long gone.

I don't know? What do you mean? Neil is on record, he appeared at the inquest. No I wasn't there but there were individuals there who recorded what Neil stated, and he stated under oath, that when he found the body he noticed that blood oozed out of the neck wound.

... and since we now know that oozing can point to a lot of blood pouring out, Iīm quite fine with the wording. Especially since we know that the word "profusely" was used in the initial paper reports.

Also, I'm confused here. what do you mean by

"How do you know the remove of time that had passed since the neck was cut? It could be seconds only"

I was referring to when Paul saw her, of course. You are correct that we need to count in minutes - perhaps two, three or so - before Neil got to her. Which means, of course, that the profusion of blood coming out of her neck at that stage points us in the direction of a very recent death.

Neil did not sate "oozed profusely", you're putting words into his mouth.

No - YOU are putting words into MY mouth. I have no said that Neil said this, have I?

You mean, bled profusely to the newspapers, allegedly. Oozed at inquest, entirely different to bled profusely.

And where does that put the wording "oozed profusely"? Eh? A lie? A modern invention?

Slow dying stream when Mizen arrived! Dying stream? She'd been nearly decapitated at least 5 minutes before Mizen arrived, in my opinion 15 minutes, and a stream is still visible, come of it man.

What would you call a running liquid? I call it a stream, and I accept that it can be anything from miniscule to broad.

Nichols had bled out by the time Neil arrived at the scene, her heart had stopped beating, and the little blood that was left in her body, oozed slowly out through the wound by the action of gravity. Both Neil, and Mizen witnessed this phenomena, and said as much at inquest, under oath.

Aha - so she had bled out, which was why she was still bleeding? Great stuff.

Tosh indeed, zooming in from Sweden. I've just had a look in the mirror, and all I see, is the George Cooney lookalike that's been there for some time now (I wish) not a hint of horse muck.

What has Sweden got to do with it? WOuld it help if I aquired a British citizenship? Is that what it takes? Wow.

Cross knew, believe me.

BELIEVE YOU? Dear me ...! Cross wasnīt even called Cross, Observer.

However, I am much inclined to agree that he knew - but the story he told the inquest was not that he knew, was it? And when it comes to Neilīs jumping between the terms bled profusely and oozed blood, you seem quite eager to go with the inquest reports in order to cut away the bit you donīt esteem.
And now you do the same, by NOT listening to the inquest.

So letīs count standards here, one, two ... ouch!

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

It would seem to me that yet another Stride thread has been turned into a 'Cross as Ripper' thread by Fish, so I'll bow out or now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Hello Lynn!
If she intends to get away, she is rising away from the yard, so if he grabs the collar area, few steps of sharp tugs, then violent down force, she is in the yard and down. Once he gets that far, I highly doubt that he would come forward and say a word if he didn't kill her. oh well, was a thought.

[Fisherman]

It would seem to me that yet another Stride thread has been turned into a 'Cross as Ripper' thread by Fish, so I'll bow out or now.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Go check again, Tom, and you will find out when the thread turned to Nichols and who posted at that stage.
Or, you could just skip that and simply assume that you are right, the way you usually do.

The best,
Fisherman

PS. For the record, I will speak a lot more on a lot of other threads about Lechmere, that is a certainty. If you will bow out every time it happens, then fine DS.

[moonbegger]

the little blood that was left in her body, oozed slowly out through the wound by the action of gravity.

Was Polly found hanging upside down then

moonbegger ..

[moonbegger]

Go check again, Tom, and you will find out when the thread turned to Nichols and who posted at that stage.

guess that would be me Bertie Smalls ! but I still think it is a reasonable and relative question .

One of the few things that don't quite gel for me , as far as Stride meeting her maker at the hands of the Ripper is this ... We have all been led to believe since day one, that once the killer had been disturbed by diemschutz , unsatisfied and frothing at the mouth he set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon .

So he finds Kate , mutilates her and removes her uterus , just as he did with Annie , and just as he would have done with Polly if he had not been disturbed by Cross . And here is the thing .. once he is interrupted by Cross , does this blood thirsty monster set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon . No , he heads back to his safe house / bolt hole , wherever ! with this apparent driving urge to remove organs fully under his control .

cheers

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

guess that would be me Bertie Smalls ! but I still think it is a reasonable and relative question .



cheers

moonbegger

It is. And there is very often good reason to stray off in some direction that seems unrelated to the core of a thread - but has bearing on it just the same. And most people have nothing against that. In fact, it would probably take me all of thrity seconds to find a thread where Tom discusses matters that are not thread-specific - if I was into that sort of thing.

Anyway, that is not what is at play here, Moon, and it is not why Tom took his ordinary jibe at me...!

All the best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

wrong way Stride

Hello Joe. Thanks.

"If she intends to get away, she is rising away from the yard, so if he grabs the collar area, few steps of sharp tugs, then violent down force, she is in the yard and down."

If he is tugging, she is going father east--away from the yard.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

One of the few things that don't quite gel for me , as far as Stride meeting her maker at the hands of the Ripper is this ... We have all been led to believe since day one, that once the killer had been disturbed by diemschutz , unsatisfied and frothing at the mouth he set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon .

So he finds Kate , mutilates her and removes her uterus , just as he did with Annie , and just as he would have done with Polly if he had not been disturbed by Cross . And here is the thing .. once he is interrupted by Cross , does this blood thirsty monster set off rampaging through the streets in search of another victim to unleash his pent up aggression and fury upon . No , he heads back to his safe house / bolt hole , wherever ! with this apparent driving urge to remove organs fully under his control .

I don't know who posted this. I saw it quoted in moonbeggars post. But this is comparing apples with oranges. Ted Bundy killed about 20 women before his first 'double event'. Most importantly, the Ripper would have felt more vulnerable when he killed Nichols, and damn near omnipotent following the Chapman inquest. Also, the press reported that Chapman was one of two women killed that day and that graffiti was found written by the killer near the scene. None of these things were true, but the streets were filled with the rumors. I think the Ripper wanted to live up to his reputation because it's strange that within weeks of these rumors circulating, it actually happened. This might explain why the Ripper got an early start that night as not just Liz but Kate also was killed at a much earlier time than the other women.

And since whoever posted this expects his robot Ripper to behave the same every time, I have to assume he doesn't think Mary Kelly was a Ripper victim since all her private parts were present and accounted for.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

I don't know who posted this.
Tom Wescott

Back up three posts, To, and it shall be revealed ...

Fisherman
helpful

[Observer]

Back up three posts, To, and it shall be revealed ...

Fisherman
helpful

You are indeed correct Fisherman, I recognised the logic at once.

[Observer]

Was Polly found hanging upside down then

moonbegger ..

Oh dear. Oh deary me.

I would be a lot more confident in you Moonbegger, if I thought you were joking.

[Fisherman]

Oh dear. Oh deary me.

I would be a lot more confident in you Moonbegger, if I thought you were joking.

Suggestion - letīs stop flinging **** on each other for the time being - and find out a little something about how these things work. I have done some research and I have contacted a specialist in forensic pathology, and I hope to have a little something to bring to the table in days to come.

Deal?

Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Fish, I think you'll agree this is becoming decidedly repetitive.

However

Observer:
I'm no medical expert, but I'm assuming that Liz Stride's heart would have taken more time to cease than Polly Nichols.

Not only that, Observer - you are also apparently assuming that Nicholsīheart would stop more or less immediately upon being cut never to twitch the slightest after that. Without being any expert, that is.

Not immediately no, now you are putting words into my mouth. Considering the extent of the injuries, I'd say it would not have extended into many minutes, a medical expert is needed. One thing though. I doubt it was beating when Neil reached the scene.

"May have felt", being the operative words here. I believe Polly Nichols was long gone, still, silent, beyond repair, stone dead, by the time Cross, and Paul found her.

I know. And I also know that you ground this assumption on no evidence at all. Plus I know you are welcome to it - I assume that she was anything but long gone, and I do so on meagre evidence too. But at least there IS some evidence supporting my take, the warm body, the twitch Paul felt, the blood that was flowing as both Neil and Mizen saw her.

The warm body? I can live with a warm body 30 minutes after the murder. The twitch Paul felt? You mean the twitch Paul thought he may have felt. At the inquest, under oath, Neil, and Mizen observed the wound oozing.

Gone she may have been - but she may NOT have been long gone.

I'd agree, about 15 minutes, before Cross, and Paul found her. Llewellyn stated

" I believe she had not been dead more than half-an-hour."

Seeing as he made that statement at 4:00 a.m. that Neil, and Mizen observed blood reduced to an ooze, that Cross, and Paul failed to detect any blood flow at all, indicating to me that the wound merely oozed when they found Nichols, I'd estimate that the outer limits of Llewellyn's estimated TOD was about right. Namely 3:30 a.m.

I don't know? What do you mean? Neil is on record, he appeared at the inquest. No I wasn't there but there were individuals there who recorded what Neil stated, and he stated under oath, that when he found the body he noticed that blood oozed out of the neck wound.

... and since we now know that oozing can point to a lot of blood pouring out, Iīm quite fine with the wording. Especially since we know that the word "profusely" was used in the initial paper reports.

You may well be quite fine with the wording, but I am not. I'll leave each individual to make up his, or her own mind, as to whether oozing can point to a lot of blood pouring out.

I was referring to when Paul saw her, of course. You are correct that we need to count in minutes - perhaps two, three or so - before Neil got to her. Which means, of course, that the profusion of blood coming out of her neck at that stage points us in the direction of a very recent death.

Neil said oozing at inquest. Oozing does not depict a profusion of blood coming out. Why did Paul not detect a profusion of blood coming out, he inspected the body fairly thoroughly?

N

eil did not sate "oozed profusely", you're putting words into his mouth.

No - YOU are putting words into MY mouth. I have no said that Neil said this, have I?

You mean, bled profusely to the newspapers, allegedly. Oozed at inquest, entirely different to bled profusely.

And where does that put the wording "oozed profusely"? Eh? A lie? A modern invention?

Incredible. You googled oozed, and then changed that to oozed profusely, in order to blend that in with the newspaper reports of bled profusely. Please, lets be accurate, there are two reports in which Neil describes the state of the body when he found it. Firstly the newspaper reports, which state that the wound bled profusely. Secondly the inquest report which stated that the wound oozed.

Slow dying stream when Mizen arrived! Dying stream? She'd been nearly decapitated at least 5 minutes before Mizen arrived, in my opinion 15 minutes, and a stream is still visible, come of it man.

What would you call a running liquid? I call it a stream, and I accept that it can be anything from miniscule to broad.

A stream equates to oozing? Not in my book.

Nichols had bled out by the time Neil arrived at the scene, her heart had stopped beating, and the little blood that was left in her body, oozed slowly out through the wound by the action of gravity. Both Neil, and Mizen witnessed this phenomena, and said as much at inquest, under oath.

Aha - so she had bled out, which was why she was still bleeding? Great stuff.

Bled out. Finished bleeding. Merely oozing blood when Neil found her, and seeing as Cross, and Paul found her before Neil, oozing blood then.

Tosh indeed, zooming in from Sweden. I've just had a look in the mirror, and all I see, is the George Cooney lookalike that's been there for some time now (I wish) not a hint of horse muck.

What has Sweden got to do with it? WOuld it help if I aquired a British citizenship? Is that what it takes? Wow.

Nothing, the only reason I mentioned Sweden was because that is where you are residing, and the tosh was coming from that direction.

Cross knew, believe me.

BELIEVE YOU? Dear me ...! Cross wasnīt even called Cross, Observer.

However, I am much inclined to agree that he knew - but the story he told the inquest was not that he knew, was it? And when it comes to Neilīs jumping between the terms bled profusely and oozed blood, you seem quite eager to go with the inquest reports in order to cut away the bit you donīt esteem.
And now you do the same, by NOT listening to the inquest.

So letīs count standards here, one, two ... ouch!

Double standards? I refer to Lechmere as Cross, due to many years of calling him Cross. Old habits die hard( I'm leaving myself open to a re-buff here, that I know) nothing to do with double standards.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Suggestion - letīs stop flinging **** on each other for the time being - and find out a little something about how these things work. I have done some research and I have contacted a specialist in forensic pathology, and I hope to have a little something to bring to the table in days to come.

Deal?

Fisherman

Ok. Fire away