Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello (again) Tom. Not watching--reading about them.

Cheers.
LC

You mean the same tosh we've been reading?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"Non-penetrative sex was uncommon for paying customers."

Your source for this?

Cheers.
LC

I have this old journal...

Mike

[sleekviper]

This is interesting, I must be boring. In my mind, BS dude grabbed the back of Stride's bodice when she stood, and with force pulled her back, and down. Bruising from the straps across the shoulders, from the part that crosses the chest in the collarbone area.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Sleek. That's a very interesting and creative suggestion and entirely plausible. The only caveat is that both doctors felt the shoulder bruises were made by fingers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Very true - and if Lechmere had killed her, perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a pumping heart (we probably DID have), a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely. Remeber that she bled profusely when Neil saw her, and that the blood had not stopped running when Mizen arrived. And this in spite of her having had all the major vessels severed.

The best,
Fisherman

Makes perfect sense to me Fish . And IF Paul had disturbed CrossMere 30 seconds after he brought Polly to ground , would it not be a fair assumption to make , that Polly may have received the same treatment as did Annie and Kate had the killer not been interrupted ?

cheers , moonbegger

[Fisherman]

Makes perfect sense to me Fish . And IF Paul had disturbed CrossMere 30 seconds after he brought Polly to ground , would it not be a fair assumption to make , that Polly may have received the same treatment as did Annie and Kate had the killer not been interrupted ?

cheers , moonbegger

It´s a fair enough assumption. Moonbegger - but not a safe one, I feel. If Tabram was the Ripper´s, then we have a progression in the abdominal interest, with Tabram only receiving a probing, smallish cut to the abdominal surface, whereas Annie was cut totally open and lost organs.

My own feeling is that Nichols would have received the same treatment - but we can´t be sure that the killer had developed a wish to extract organs at this stage. Chances are that he had no further aim but to lay the abdomen open.

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

Hello Observer ,

How can you breath when your windpipe is completely severed? Polly Nichols was stone dead when Paul arrived at the scene, that is why I can be so sure that Paul did not detect any movement.

I can only echo what Wickerman and Fish have already posted here and maybe throw in the headless chicken running around the yard conundrum .. we know Polly was dead .. but was she so freshly dead that her body was still coming to terms with it .. And if that was indeed the case then there is every possibility that the killer was interrupted from meeting out the same treatment that Annie and Kate received .. but I do agree with you in so much as it could all be a load of tosh , alas unfortunately I fear, none of us will ever know .

cheers

moonbegger

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Fisherman!

Sorry, which organs did Nichols have removed? Thank you in advance.

[Nick Spring]

Hello Observer ,


I can only echo what Wickerman and Fish have already posted here and maybe throw in the headless chicken running around the yard conundrum .. we know Polly was dead .. but was she so freshly dead that her body was still coming to terms with it .. And if that was indeed the case then there is every possibility that the killer was interrupted from meeting out the same treatment that Annie and Kate received .. but I do agree with you in so much as it could all be a load of tosh , alas unfortunately I fear, none of us will ever know .

cheers

moonbegger

yes I think that's right Nichols would have had further mutilations but was possibly interrupted.

cheers

Nick

[Nick Spring]

I should have added, interrupted like Stride.

cheers

Nick

[sleekviper]

Hello Tom!
Well the bodice would do the most bruising, but he grabs for the back collar of her jacket, and he catches the jacket, bodice and chemise, it could appear as three lines of bruises on each side. It could then appear to be two distinct fingers, with two finger marks blurred into one from the bodice. If they note a thumb indentation on either back shoulder blade, there goes that, but if they do not, then would wonder how he put force in a grip with no thumb.

[lynn cates]

horses mouths

Hello Tom. Thanks.

No, reading what prostitutes themselves had to say.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

volume and number

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"I have this old journal..."

If you have volume and number, I'd be much obliged.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

east meets west

Hello Joe. Good to see you posting.

You're suggesting that BSM reached around behind her and pulled? Would he not be off balance?

But if she had turned and faced west, he could indeed have pulled her back onto the pavement or Berner. Of course, her feet would have been pointed west--not east.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

A pumping heart when Paul arrived!

[B]Are you aware that the heart can go on pumping for many minutes after somebody has been for example hanged? Obviously not, since you think it "tosh" for it to go on pumping for the odd minute!

From the net, on hangings:

"The average time it takes for the heart to fail (because air supply has been cut off) is 3 minutes. Given the state of physical fitness - or lack thereof - it could be a slightly longer or shorter time."

Hi Fish

Polly Nichol's was not hanged, she was nigh on decapitated. Hanging is no comparison to near decapitation when assessing whether the heart would have been beating three minutes after the initial injury. Surely you realise this?

Why did he not detect a beating heart, a gasping respiration system?

He may well have felt a heartbeat - he said he felt a faint movement, Observer. And that is totally inline with the heart pumping away the way I say.

No it is not in line with what you are suggesting, I quote

"perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely."

A mere thirty seconds, between gasping away, and a faint movement? Did he even detect a faint movement? How would you detect a faint movement in those conditions? He didn't even notice that her throat was cut.

I know Fish that English is not your first language, but oozing in no way reflects bleeding profusely. Neil used the term oozing.

[B]Please read:

"The facts are that Constable John Neil was walking down Bucks-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel,
about a quarter to four o'clock this morning, when he discovered a woman between 35 and 40 years
of age lying at the side of the street with her throat cut right open from ear to ear, the instrument
with which the deed was done traversing the throat from left to right. The wound was about two
inches wide, and blood was flowing profusely."

(Evening News)

"The wound was about two inches wide, and blood was flowing profusely ."

(East London Advertiser)

"As Constable John Neil was walking down Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, about ... The wound was an inch wide, and blood was flowing profusely."

(Daily Telegraph)

"As Constable John Neil was walking down Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel, ... The wound was about two inches wide and blood was flowing profusely."

(The Star)

Yes, Observer - what tosh indeed. And it comes from you - and it flows profusely!

Why did you not check beforehand? The inquest reports speak of oozing blood, but the paper reports were earlier and they say it bled profusely.

Paper talk nothing more. We had a deep wound to the throat what else do we need, of yes, blood flying out of the wound. Neil was either misquoted, or fed a leading question. Under oath, at the inquest he stated exactly what he had witnessed, that is, blood oozing out of the wound. Mizen observed the same phenomena.

Tosh, eh?

Tosh indeed.

Cross himself informed Mizen.

"She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead"

Mr Cross was indeed correct, Polly Nichols was quite dead.

[B]Read again - she was either dead or drunk to Lechmere´s mind. He favoured dead over drunk for some reason, but left the possibility open that she was indeed alive.
One might want to consider that he could have had a reason to lie if he was the killer. Not that it seems to have entered you equation, but still...

No it has not entered my equation. Cross favoured dead over drunk for one reason, he realised that Polly Nichols was quite dead.

Regards

Observer