Did jack kill liz stride?

[Wickerman]

Hi Tom - hope you are well.

Hi Wick. What other prostitutes had shoulder bruising?

Chapman & McKenzie.

4) There was no evidence of vaginal intercourse and the whole "through the thighs" thing you read about in old school Ripper books is nonsense. Having said that, vaginal intercourse would not always be obvious post mortem, so absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, but still something to consider.

There's a few points to consider here.

- When a doctor observed "no evidence of connection" we might be correct in assuming he only looked for the usual evidence in the usual location. Perhaps, the good doctor was not so streetwise?

- The "between the thighs" was actually documented by a retired prostitute, who became a 'madam' (owner of a brothel), and yet died a virgin - hence taken to be 'proof' of her technique.

[moonbegger]

Hello Observer ,

That's a poor analogy Moonbegger. It didn't happen like that.

Yes I would have to agree it was a poor analogy ..

I was trying to make the point , that if three murders have been committed ( I think there is a lot more to the Kelly murder and i'm out on Stride ) and two of the key factors in the last two, are the removal of the uterus , and the facial mutilations , I think the question has to be asked " why no missing uterus or facial mutilations on Polly ? " . My guess is the killer was disturbed by Cross before he got to complete his task ..

Twitching? His testimony does not include the word twitch, nor anything like it. "A slight movement of breathing but very faint," is what he said.

Twitching/slight movement .. Polly was freshly killed and every statement we have echo's this .

Paul was wrong

How can you be so sure ?

LLwellyn's TOD, in my opinion, is inconclusive as to whether the killer was disturbed.

I agree .. but with the benefit of hindsight and if we filter in all the other ramifications & timelines as well as the lack of any facial mutilations ( which I personally think was his final act ) or missing uterus , it leaves us with a good possibility that the killer was interrupted. and there is also the fact that in just one week he would need to kill again to fulfill his desired task, unlike the three weeks he left it before Kate .

His regular MO? Before the Nichols murder he didn't have a regular MO.

Any killer that plans ahead will always have blueprint MO in his head , the world outside only becomes aware of it after the fact . And if a killer is disturbed half way through his first murder , then all the world gets to know of only 50% of it . But when two other murders by the same hand are committed and we get to see 100% , then surely we can figure out that something occurred during the 50% killing that forced him to abort .

Nichols was the first time he'd opened a woman up.

Again Observer , how do you know this ?

cheers , moonbegger

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Tom

I note you haven't yet directly addressed the points raised in my post #1413.

I do hope that's because of the inescapable logic rather than your (oft-hidden), gentlemanly instincts!

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Moonbegger

I was trying to make the point , that if three murders have been committed ( I think there is a lot more to the Kelly murder and i'm out on Stride ) and two of the key factors in the last two, are the removal of the uterus , and the facial mutilations , I think the question has to be asked " why no missing uterus or facial mutilations on Polly ? " . My guess is the killer was disturbed by Cross before he got to complete his task ..

That's fair enough. However I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that the killer was disturbed.


Let me ask you, why no facial mutilations on Chapman? Lets face it, we can't predict what was going through the mind of this individual. The fact is he did not remove Nichols uterus. In my opinion it's unwise to suggest the his intention was to take said uterus.

Twitching/slight movement .. Polly was freshly killed and every statement we have echo's this .

Again this is what Paul revealed

"he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint"

The movement was a reference to Polly Nichols breathing, that is, the act of breathing.

Dr Llewellyn

" This incision completely severs all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed."

How can you breath when your windpipe is completely severed? Polly Nichols was stone dead when Paul arrived at the scene, that is why I can be so sure that Paul did not detect any movement.

I agree .. but with the benefit of hindsight and if we filter in all the other ramifications & timelines as well as the lack of any facial mutilations ( which I personally think was his final act ) or missing uterus , it leaves us with a good possibility that the killer was interrupted. and there is also the fact that in just one week he would need to kill again to fulfill his desired task, unlike the three weeks he left it before Kate .

Again, Annie Chapman had no facial mutilations. It's plain to me that the Whitechapel murderer's ferocity progressed with each murder. I personally believe that he had no intention of taking Polly Nichols uterus, it had not occurred to him at that time to take a body part. Of course that's only my opinion.

Any killer that plans ahead will always have blueprint MO in his head , the world outside only becomes aware of it after the fact . And if a killer is disturbed half way through his first murder , then all the world gets to know of only 50% of it . But when two other murders by the same hand are committed and we get to see 100% , then surely we can figure out that something occurred during the 50% killing that forced him to abort .

Again, for me, there's not enough evidence which suggests an interruption.

You suggested that Polly Nichols was not the first woman to be mutilated by The Whitechapel Murderer. Care to elaborate?

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Hi again Moonbegger

Regarding the time lapses between the murders. Again, we can only guess as to why he chose those nights to commit murder. Some detect a pattern, that is the beginning and end of each month. When considering the time lapses between murders it's tempting to add Tabram to the tally. She of course was murdered on the 7th of August.

Regards

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

I note you haven't yet directly addressed the points raised in my post #1413.

I do hope that's because of the inescapable logic rather than your (oft-hidden), gentlemanly instincts!

All the best

Dave

Hi Cog. I thought I addressed all the issues over a couple posts. If not, please reword and post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

Regarding Polly Nichols:

There are two points of evidence that suggest Polly was dead well before Cross discovered her.

A part of her may indeed have gone away with her killer.

As with Stride, the notion that her killer was disturbed is pure speculation. It might also be the truth, but let's call it what it is. Moon is probably correct on most counts, but some things which are being called facts are not facts. And the notion that Nichols could have been breathing when her windpipe was split in half and literally jutting from the open wound is something that should have long been disposed of.

As for the facial mutilation, if we assume (and that's all we're doing) that Chapman and Eddowes were killed by the same man, then it may simply have not occurred to him yet. At the Chapman scene he may have been more entranced by the viscera. Also, the 'double event' occurred right after the end of the Chapman inquest, at which time he would have felt damn near invincible with Dr. Phillips all but handing him an honorary medical degree and the police admitting defeat. I think he went out that night intending to 'up the ante' and kill two women as had already been rumored prior to the double event. This is all just open speculation of course since we don't know what he was thinking or what motivated him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

inter-femoral

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Of course, in inter-femoral intercourse, neither the vagina nor the anus is involved.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Are you also bringing up the nonsense of the 'between the thighs'? You're a men, so let me ask you...would you be fooled by that? Remarkable no Ripperologist asks themselves that question. You're paying money, would you settle for thigh? Of course not. And if these women were "inter-femoral" as you call it, then explain the syphilis epidemic.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

secretions

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Whether or not one would settle for that depends on:

1. How drunk one is.

2. How much one is willing to pay.

3. Whether or not one fears venereal infection.

Obviously, not ALL was inter-femoral. Much, however, was. That is why both Polly and Kate had their thighs checked for "secretions."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Even if a windpipe is severed completely through, the spine & muscular structures will still hold the two halves in place, the upper half directly above the lower half.
So long as the body is laid at rest, as Nichols was, with no obvious distortion of the neck, air will still pass up and down the larynx, however it would be possible to hear the escape of air, a gurgling sound, much like the sound of someone with Emphysema or Pneumonia.
Naturally air will escape, and equally, blood will seep into the lungs making the breathing more labored, whether the victim dies from drowning in her own blood, or from the heart ceasing to beat due to blood loss is debatable.
I mean, there are no obvious interpretations from our perspective, in either case death is not sudden.

[Fisherman]

in either case death is not sudden.

Very true - and if Lechmere had killed her, perhaps thirty seconds before Paul entered the stage, we could well have a pumping heart (we probably DID have), a respiration system gasping away and blood flowing freely. Remeber that she bled profusely when Neil saw her, and that the blood had not stopped running when Mizen arrived. And this in spite of her having had all the major vessels severed.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Obviously, not ALL was inter-femoral. Much, however, was. That is why both Polly and Kate had their thighs checked for "secretions."

this isn't true. 'Much' infers 'most' in the way you've used it here. That is absolutely wrong. Checking the thighs was an attempt to find semen to see if sex was a motive, and not because Intercrural sex was prevalent. It was a "nothing here. Let's check elsewhere" thing. Non-penetrative sex was uncommon for paying customers. If you are suggesting Oscar Wilde was the ripper, maybe you'd have something there.

Cheers,

Mike

[c.d.]

It makes me a little uneasy that people seem to know so much about inter-femoral sex. Just saying.

c.d.

P.S. I have also heard the expression "slick legging."

[Observer]

Even if a windpipe is severed completely through, the spine & muscular structures will still hold the two halves in place, the upper half directly above the lower half.
So long as the body is laid at rest, as Nichols was, with no obvious distortion of the neck, air will still pass up and down the larynx, however it would be possible to hear the escape of air, a gurgling sound, much like the sound of someone with Emphysema or Pneumonia.
Naturally air will escape, and equally, blood will seep into the lungs making the breathing more labored, whether the victim dies from drowning in her own blood, or from the heart ceasing to beat due to blood loss is debatable.
I mean, there are no obvious interpretations from our perspective, in either case death is not sudden.

Absolute tosh. Death is not sudden? So how long do you suppose it took Polly Nichols to die?

Regards

Observer