Did jack kill liz stride?

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I can appreciate your desire for 100% metaphysical certainty but I really do not understand it. We have all the evidence that we are going to have (or so it would appear). Based on that evidence, it seems to most of us that study the case that it is more probable than not that Liz sometimes resorted to prostitution. I think that conclusion is about the best we can do.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello White Chap,

The autopsy showed that she had no alcohol in her system.

Could she have been killed even though she claimed she was unavailable? Possibly, but her body and her clothes don't seem to indicate any sort of struggle.

The financial assistance she received could not have been much and it is certainly possible that she had to pay back some of it to anyone who had fronted her money. Also, her killer, be it Jack or otherwise, could have offered more than the going rate making it a much harder offer to turn down.

c.d.

P.S. Don't worry about being a newbie. Just keep asking questions.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

You would think that whether Liz was a prostitute or not was of some importance to the police in attempting to determine if this were a Ripper murder or a domestic. So while they may not have been omniscient, I don't think that they pulled that conclusion out of a hat.

c.d.

[El White Chap]

Thanks for your reply c.d.,

Liz appeared before the courts 8 times for being drunk and disorderly in the 2 years before she was killed. On the night of her death she was alleged to have drank at the Queens Head with Elizabeth Tanner. I haven't seen any coroners reports to suggest that there was no alcohol in her blood. I'm not saying for one moment that she was legless, just that she obviously had a problem with alcohol and that she had consumed it before she died.

[Fisherman]

Thanks for your reply c.d.,

Liz appeared before the courts 8 times for being drunk and disorderly in the 2 years before she was killed. On the night of her death she was alleged to have drank at the Queens Head with Elizabeth Tanner. I haven't seen any coroners reports to suggest that there was no alcohol in her blood. I'm not saying for one moment that she was legless, just that she obviously had a problem with alcohol and that she had consumed it before she died.

Stride was a drinker, many witnessed about that. But on the night of her murder, she was seemingly not intoxicated. From the inquest, as reported in the Times:
"The CORONER. - Was there any sign of liquor in the stomach? Witness (Dr Phillips, my remark). - There was no trace of it.

Also, William Marshall, who saw her prior to her death, said that she gave no impression of being intoxicated. James Brown, another witness, said the exact same thing - but it is doubtful whether it was actually Stride he saw.

Nevertheless, Stride was seemingly sober that night.

All the best,
Fisherman

[El White Chap]

Stride was a drinker, many witnessed about that. But on the night of her murder, she was seemingly not intoxicated. From the inquest, as reported in the Times:
"The CORONER. - Was there any sign of liquor in the stomach? Witness (Dr Phillips, my remark). - There was no trace of it.

Also, William Marshall, who saw her prior to her death, said that she gave no impression of being intoxicated. James Brown, another witness, said the exact same thing - but it is doubtful whether it was actually Stride he saw.

Nevertheless, Stride was seemingly sober that night.

All the best,
Fisherman

I'm not sure about the coroners findings when Elizabeth Tanner is adamant that they had a drink together in the Queens Head on the same evening. Perhaps she only had one or two drinks and was relatively sober. I've read the inquest more thoroughly now and it only states about "malt liquor" (beer). There is no mention of them testing for other types of alcohol, such as gin for example.

Cheers.

[The Good Michael]

I'm not sure about the coroners findings when Elizabeth Tanner is adamant that they had a drink together in the Queens Head on the same evening. Perhaps she only had one or two drinks and was relatively sober. I've read the inquest more thoroughly now and it only states about "malt liquor" (beer). There is no mention of them testing for other types of alcohol, such as gin for example.

Also, if the examiner didn't smell alcohol, which was the only way to detect it, he would say there wasn't any. Also, scotch and whiskey and any grain alcohol is malted. That does leave out gin, though malt liquor may have been a catch-all term.

Another thing, Phillips answered the question after he was brought back to the deceased for a second examination. Who knows what remnants of alcohol would have been left by then. I think this is a non-starter. Surely she had been drinking if she had a penny on her.

Mike

[El White Chap]

Also, if the examiner didn't smell alcohol, which was the only way to detect it, he would say there wasn't any. I think this is one of those unreliable things from the Victorian era much the same as time of death.

Mike

We have to remember with this era that medical/cadaver examination and practice then wasn't anywhere close to what it is today. There wasn't the same contemporary anatomical knowledge and there simply weren't the same procedures in place then. Things were overlooked by the coroner and CSI that would have been detected today. Forensics were so very basic, not even finger print dusting at crime scenes, an autopsy then would be a very different process.

Keeping an open mind about how accurate and thorough the postmortem would have been is favourable.

[lynn cates]

results

Hello Jon. Thanks.

If they were further back:

1. Why did Liz get killed on the way out?

2. Doesn't that make Schwartz a fibber?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

drink

Hello EWC.

"Also we know that she was drunk having frequented a few local pubs that evening."

No signs of malt liquor consumption.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

when

Hello CD. Thanks.

You mean epistemological certainty? Quite.

I, too, suppose that Liz sometimes resorted to prostitution. But the question is, Was it that night?

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

Hello EWC.

"Also we know that she was drunk having frequented a few local pubs that evening."

No signs of malt liquor consumption.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm not convinced by the doctors account of the postmortem that there was definitely no alcohol consumption, as I've elaborated on in my follow up posts.

[lynn cates]

ass u me

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"I don't think that they pulled that conclusion out of a hat."

No, they made an assumption--but that is all it was.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

I, too, suppose that Liz sometimes resorted to prostitution. But the question is, Was it that night?

Lynn,

Please list what the ramifications are if Stride had not been soliciting that night?

If she had been drinking (which I believe) and was vulnerable, what is the difference?

Is there some reason you are fighting so hard to come to a non-solicitation decision. And please don't suggest it's any sort of gallant attempt to clear the poor lady's name.

Mike

[El White Chap]

Elizabeth Tanner testified that she'd been drinking with Liz in the Queens Head..With little doubt to refute those claims, I've got to say I believe her.