Did jack kill liz stride?

[tji]

Hi all

I go to a club that has been around for years, that members run, it has a games room where women are not allowed to enter, they are not allowed to become members and you get barred for 'foul language'.

They even barred Chubby Brown when he did a there there - although what they expected he do with no bad language I'm not too sure.

Tj

[Tom_Wescott]

Sox,

I believe the laws were a little looser than you suppose. The following is from the Star of Oct. 1st, 1888:

What the Police were Doing.

In the midst of the excitement following on the Berner-street murder, some of the police were mean enough to try to purchase tobacco and drink from some of the members of the Jewish club. Money was tendered when request was made, but was, of course, refused. The police were not so entirely absorbed in endeavoring to catch the criminal but that they could attempt to inveigle innocent persons into committing a petty crime for the sake of securing a paltry conviction.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Coffee shops could sell alcohol.
If the club had a restrictive membership how the devil did they get William Morris in there?

[Sox]

I am aware of that Tom, but that is a newspaper report, and the law of the land in 1888 did not cover clubs, which you can check for yourself of course.

The reality is that these clubs were not private, not members only. The sale of alcohol and tobacco helped fund the club, in exactly the same way that it does today. They fully exploited a loophole in the law, one that was closed in 1902. By claiming that their clubs were private or members only it took them outside the law hence.........

some of the police were mean enough to try to purchase tobacco and drink from some of the members of the Jewish club.

....they would not sell to the police because those officers were not members and not because it was outside hours, or because they did not have a licence, they did not need a licence.

[Sox]

Coffee shops could sell alcohol.
If the club had a restrictive membership how the devil did they get William Morris in there?

Voila.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sox,

So are you now agreeing that the club would have required a license to sell to the open public? That's what I've been saying. Your suggestions of random men or Liz Stride popping in to buy a pint suggested to me you thought they would sell liquor to anyone and everyone. Even William Morris.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Ben,

I see how he could be targeting the club, but I am not going to suggest he is. We just don't know if he did or not.


Yours truly

[Observer]

Well, she said she saw someone who looked like a foreigner, but since by her own admission, she only saw the man's back, any worth in that observation is all but eradicated.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben

Yes I am aware that Elizabeth Long mentioned a foreigner, not a Jew. Martin mentioned Long's "Jewish" suspect, and the Jewish connection, a bit contradictory as he is of the opinion that JTR was not a Jew !!

Regarding Long, it's true she did not get a look at the mans face, she heard his voice though, and it's possible she could have detected a foreign accent.

all the best

Observer

[Tom_Wescott]

Too bad Long wasn't a Berner Street witness. It would have been a hoot having Liz Long running into 'Long Liz'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Tom,

That would be interesting wouldn't it?

Yours truly

[Sox]

Sox,

So are you now agreeing that the club would have required a license to sell to the open public? That's what I've been saying. Your suggestions of random men or Liz Stride popping in to buy a pint suggested to me you thought they would sell liquor to anyone and everyone. Even William Morris.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Good lord. That they would sell alcohol to anyone is exactly what I am suggesting. They did not need a license at all as long as they kept up the premise that they were a private, members only club....that was the loophole Tom, that was why they would not serve the police.

What the place was known as locally can be extremely misleading, if it was known as 'The Jewish Club' that does not mean a whole lot, I lived near a pub known as 'The White House' that was not white and had a sign outside that said The Ring O' Bells...and another pub across the road from where I grew up was known to everyone as The Pig, but it was actually called The Victoria. The club could even have gotten it's local name by virtue of the newspaper it printed.

My point is this: We assume that the International Working Men's Educational Club was the strict domain of Jewish socialists & other radicals, by virtue of it's members and that this assumption, in all probability, is a misleading one. Even by your own admission even the members had renounced their faith, that would make them 'immigrants' or foreigners no? Foreigners bound together by a common tongue.....Yiddish?

And all of this may well seem to be trivial, but I think it was important to Liz Stride's case, because if we can establish what she was doing there then maybe, just maybe, we can get closer to her killer. Unlike Nichols and Chapman, I think that both Stride & Eddowes had destinations in mind the night they died, in other words maybe Eddowes was soliciting by mere chance of running into a customer, but I would strongly doubt that Stride was.

So the exact nature of that club, is important to me.

[Hunter]

Stride's final destination was the club since she was found dead there. Not trying to be patronizing, but the most important witness that night has to be PC Smith who saw LIz with a man carrying a parcel, at 12:35 across the street from the club. I think he was a member of the club carring their propoganda paper.

No one there that night said that they had seen Stride before. Eagle and Lave had been outside about the time that Smith saw Liz with the man with the parcel and never said they saw Liz. Of course Dutfields Yard was never used for immoral purposes either. With so many testimonies conflicting, the only choice is to read between the lines. The club members were lying about not seing LIz before. They were lying about the Yard not bring used by prostitutes.

Bottom line, in my opinion, Liz was there soliciting. Places like that was what prostitutes targeted; especially after the pubs had closed. It had rained almost up until the time she was seen by Smith. She was found with dry clothes. She had to be inside somewhere before then, or at least under something. That the club members lied about her is not surprising. They had enough crap on their table that night by having her murdered there and the police weren't too keen on the whole outfit anyway.

Much has been made about Stride "fixing herself up" that night as if she may have had other plans. From what I've read she seemed to always do that. It kept her from getting into trouble with pub owners who had to be leary about open soliciting in their establishments. And that brings us back to Garner and
Best.

It comes down to which witnesses to believe. I don't believe the club members at all. I do believe PC Smith.

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

Regarding Long, it's true she did not get a look at the mans face, she heard his voice though

I think she would have gone on record as stating that he sounded like a foreigner, if that were the case.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sox]

Bottom line, in my opinion, Liz was there soliciting.

Nothing from witness testimony suggests that Hunter, and I do mean nothing. As a matter of fact, some suggest the exact opposite, shall we go into detail?

First indication, she cleaned rooms at her own lodging house and was paid sixpence for her troubles. She had money.

Second indication, she leaves a piece of green velvet with Catherine Lane to be given back on her return. Suggesting that Stride already had a bed.

Third indication, James Brown hears Stride say to a man "No, not tonight, some other night." Hardly the act of a soliciting prostitute.

And last, but not least, she is seen kissing and cuddling on two separate occasions, again hardly what you would expect from a common prostitute, she also has a flower...strong indications of something much more than sex for money.

Also, PC Smiths statement is quite clear, ''he had a newspaper parcel in his hand'', not a newspaper.

Being of the opinion that she was soliciting is one thing, however, that Liz Stride was a casual prostitute, clearly does not mean that she sold her body every night of the week, far from it. Testimony suggests that she had money,she had a drink and that she had a bed, her needs were met.

[corey123]

Sox,

And nothing suggests that the club wasn't only jewish.