Did jack kill liz stride?

[Scotland Yard]

Martin,

You will soon find out, that alot of Ripperology is guesswork and speculation.

You're not wrong there.

Which is why I would appreciate any thoughts on the following speculation.

I've always considered the Stride murder to be the work of Jack. The way the walking time from Dutfield's Yard dove-tails into the Mitre Square killing is just too neat for me to believe otherwise.

I've also felt it wrong to consider Jack to be entirely the cool, cunning and devilishly daring sod the night of the double event seems to paint him.

Perhaps he was indeed all of these things. But maybe -it seems counter-intuitive perhaps - his motivation when he set off that night was good old fashioned fear. Fear of being caught.

Its highly unlikely that he knew what we know now. That his previous murders had left the police baffled and bereft of clues. Given the vile nature of his crimes, its reasonable also to speculate that he was genuinely fearful of capture. He may have been feeling paranoid and exposed with the idea that the law was snapping at his heels foremost in his mind.

In fact, Jack may well have felt in need of some direct action to throw the police off his scent. In this light, a cold-hearted 'Red Herring' murder could very possibly have been something he would have concocted.

Consider: To minimise the risk to himself, Jack writes the Goulston Street graffiti before setting off for the area around the Working Men's club, a site he'd already targetted for its 'Jewishness.' His plan was to implicate the Jewish community by leaving the spot of his latest outrage with an artifact of clothing or (better still) a piece of the actual body of his victim and then casually dumping it by the graffiti in passing.

Jack is interrupted, however, immediately after strangling and slitting the throat of Stride. He escapes but without a trophy and, worried that people will not consider Stride to be a Ripper victim (as so many people don't), he realises that for his plan to be effective, he must strike again. With his blood up, he strides off towards 'Prostitute Island' so conveniantly near where he left the graffiti.

Any objections or thoughts regarding this scenario?

[corey123]

Hello SD,

I have some. I too think the murder of Liz Stride to be done by jack the ripper. I would say if the GSG WAS(I have yet to deside on it) written by Jack, that he ment to write it on the gates of Dutfields Yard. I think Jack was scared of capture, though not as scared as you had just described.

Indeed he was cunning. He managed to elude police and remain away from suspicion.

This is a good profiling tool, and it has been proven to be right. Ok, let me give you an example. Say a killer kills a woman, cuts her throat and disposes the body a mile away in a near by lake. The throat wound shows hesitation points and is shallow. That is the only wound on her body.

From that information alone we can derive some clues to the murderer. When someone murders someone, the normal habits of the murderer(Cleanness, disorganization, even things like relationship skills) are mirrored in the murders.

The fictionary killer I just made up would be neat and orderly. He would be described by his friends and relatives a rather shy and uncertain about things.

The same can be said for Jack the Ripper. Its most likely that he approached his victims. So he probally had no problem in confronting women and men in his daily life. He sufficated most of his victims before he killed them, so he took care not to make any sounds in his murders. Same as in his day life, he would be neat and ordily, also he would take every precaution.

This would fit your idea of the GSG being written as a diversion for the police.

However there is a major problem, the description I gave above would be counted as speculation because we have no killer caught for the murders and no way to conferm that notion.
Also, the constable who's beat was down goulston st reported that befor the apron was found, he noticed no writing in the door way.

Hope its helpful. Even if it is all speculation, such is ripperology.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hey Corey,
Can I say Colin Stagg?

Profiling is useful when you have all the facts, as is obviously the case in contemporary murder, 140 years ago when even some of the 'facts' are questioned ( look at how Hunter is revising the Berner street 'facts') I am not sure that you can, although I would not want to imply in any way that you couldnt come up with a good profile, but its such an inexact science that all it would do is create a stream of opinions and counter opinion that I am convinced would lead nowhere
Signature patterns, now thats different, you can work that because the evidence is there, and you can lock down the single killer theory, so I very gently suggest to you thats where you should maybe focus, but you have the right to kick my ass as all my reference books have been given away so I am just working from memory!! warmest regards mart.

[DVV]

The same can be said for Jack the Ripper. Its most likely that he approached his victims. So he probally had no problem in confronting women and men in his daily life. He sufficated most of his victims before he killed them, so he took care not to make any sounds in his murders. Same as in his day life, he would be neat and ordily, also he would take every precaution.

Yours truly

Hi Corey,

In which case BSM isn't Liz murderer.
Or isn't Jack the Ripper.

Amitiés,
David

[corey123]

[QUOTE=martin wilson;119025],



Signature patterns, [QUOTE]

Martin,

That is what profiling is.
I am afraid that you, like so many others, have a huge misconseption of what Criminal profiling is. It is used in a ongoing case where, like this case, not all the facts are present.

It is not as "Inexact" as you may think. I would advise that anyone wishing to discount Offinder profiles needs to be aware of how true profiling works, by using behavioral patterns, which is the same as signiture patterns.

David,

That doesn't have to be the case. Weather it was Jack or not, something went wrong with the Berner St murder, causing the killer to take different measures. Broud shoulder man could very well be Jack the Ripper.

Yours truly

p.s I know your new here Martin, but its usually good to at least try and not offind people so quick. I know perfectly well where to look in this case, thanks.

[DVV]

Hi Scotland Yard,

I've always considered the Stride murder to be the work of Jack. The way the walking time from Dutfield's Yard dove-tails into the Mitre Square killing is just too neat for me to believe otherwise.

Just perfect.

Any objections or thoughts regarding this scenario?

I do have objections... The GSG, for example, refers to the Berner Street murder, imho...

Whatever, I like your speculation. Very much.

Amitiés,
David

[martin wilson]

Hello Scotland Yard,
This is coreys area really,but it also concerns my theory of the jewish connection.
The GSG graffiti interests me because I have never thought that it was by anybody but the killer, whether he wrote it or simply exploited it I dont know,but leaving the apron there is a cinch, for me anyway.
No way was this a taunt at the police though, this was meant to be seen by someone the next day, this was meant to cause trouble
A jumpy Jack might well be a factor in the murder of Elizabeth Stride, corey will probably help you better than me, but a disorganised killer out of his 'comfort zone' yeah I can see it.factor in the club, anybody could come out at any time, it's looking good.
However I am convinced that Dutfeilds yard was used regularly by prostitutes and the club knew this, common sense says that some of the guys in the club also used their erm, services. but for fear of reprisal they denied everything after Strides murder and also came up with Izzy Schwartz to ''witness' BS and Pipeman to push suspicion away from themselves.As a result I dont believe anything about what the witness said happened that night, and I guess we will never know what REALLY happened that night, if you have any thoughts I would love to hear them
this really is my last post for a while, I have got a lot of reading to do, but I will check back to read your response
Gentlemen, it has been a privilege. warm regards madmart

[DVV]

but for fear of reprisal they denied everything after Strides murder and also came up with Izzy Schwartz to ''witness' BS and Pipeman to push suspicion away from themselves.

Hi Martin,

Schwartz couldn't say whether Pipeman and BSM were together... Then there was "Lipski!"...addressed to whom ? Schwartz, again, wasn't sure...
All this doesn't smell fabrication to me, and certainly not a "Jewish" one.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

David,

That doesn't have to be the case. Weather it was Jack or not, something went wrong with the Berner St murder, causing the killer to take different measures. Broud shoulder man could very well be Jack the Ripper.

Oh, yes Corey, BSM could well be Jack, but not the "neat" guy you're suggesting.
It's not about something gone wrong, it's about him arriving "tipsy" (what a tasty adjective, btw) and throwing a woman down in front of 2 guys.
Remember also Chapman's murder, and what Cadosch could hear.

Amitiés,
David

[martin wilson]

Hey corey,
Firstly let me apologise, I didn't mean to offend you in any way, all I really meant to say was that of the two choices working the signature patterns seems to me to be the better one, in my opinion.
I did say that I was sure you could come up with a good profile, but someone else would come up with another one and so on and so on and we would be talking about different sociopathic tendencies forever, whereas if you could lock down the single killer theory it would obviously be a huge help.
ok I said you could kick my ass and you have, forgive? warmest regards mart

[corey123]

David,

Well, that depends on what happened BEFOR bsm threw liz down. Jack was indeed a neat man.

The thing with Strides murder is, on a prolific stand point, Strides killer was extreamily different than the rest.

I personally do not believe that bsm was Jack the Ripper, I don't believe that schwartz saw what he said he saw. I think it was a misinterpretation.

Martin,

No offince taken. . The problem with nailing Jack the Ripper as one killer is there are those who believe any single change in the injuries suffered by a murder victim indicates a different killer. Some posters on here even go as far as suggesting the murders(usually the last two) were a result of Fenain activities.

If you want the truth, it was ONE killer. ONE killer killed at least 4 women in 1888 by the press invented name of "Jack the Ripper".

So, theres no way I, or anyone at that, could get evidence to persued every Ripperologist on here. They need it in written form, and the evidence is not enough for those few.

They will say we have no evidence to suggest it was a serial killer, but in truth we do.

That evidence is the Victims.

And that leaves us with loads of speculation. That is what 'ripperology' is all about. If you wanna play the game, you need to accept that you will be supposing and speculating alot.

You have to remember though, speculation is exactly what investigators do in homicide investigations.

Yours truly

[martin wilson]

Hi David, ,
thanks for your post, I love to be challenged it really does get the noggin going, here is my opinion
yes, some bloke did shout "Lipski" at Schwartz, but he had got nothing to do with any attack just some anti semitic yobbo passing by.
after that it all gets a bit 'convenient'
she screamed 3 times but' not very loudly'
, which would explain why noone came out of the club to see what was going on.

and then pipeman shows up and Schwartz thought he followed him, and in version two he had a knife,conveniently explaining why Scwartz walked away from a woman being assaulted, he didnt find a policeman or do anything at all to help this woman. no problem not all of us are civic minded.

I prefer my scenario, he was in the club, having a drink and someone found Strides body and they freaked so they denied everything and later on that day sent Schwartz with an interpreter (handy that) to Leman street to avert suspicion away from the club and its members. If stride was working the club he could have seen her before or indeed on that night, and if he saw her on that night, he was in the club.because the natural route out would have been through the yard.
whaddya think? all the best mart

[martin wilson]

Hey corey
Thanks for being so understanding bro and by the way you are right I dont know a fat lot about criminal profiling which is why I want to look at the signature patterns, at least there I know what I am on about!
I saw a documentary on the JFK assasination and the guy who put forward his theory said something pretty obvious but very true.
"the jfk assasination only happened one way"
The ripper killings only happened one way and so that means 99% of the stuff on this site is wrong, and before you say it yes I know I am part of that 99% ha ha.
all the best mate mart

[corey123]

Martin,

You know more about 'offinder profiling' than you think. Most of a profile is a conception based on observed behavior performed by a indavidual. The clues to these behaviors are the signiture patterns. The patterns are what makes a profile.

Yours truly

[Hunter]

Let's give ole Issy the benifit of a doubt and believe him. He sees a drunk stagger up to Liz and taunt her( I know I'm being redundant).He playfully grabs her by the arm. Surely, if anyone has been in a bar they've seen this happen. She may be soliciting but doesn't like the way he carries on and rejects his advances. He pulls her to him, but she's saying "Off with ya, ya drunken louse!". He doesn't like being rejected by a "whore" so he throws her down as he releases her arm. She screams a little "not too loudly"; would be a natural reaction. He turns and as he walks off shouts " Lipsky" implying sarcasticly " That's what you deserve";then staggers away. Schwartz and Pipeman are already getting out of Dodge because they don't want to get mixed up with this guy; just like everyone else that night didn't want to get involved in anything. Stride resumes her post outside the gate and just considers it an occupational hazzard. She's had an earring pulled from her ear; probably teeth knocked out in the past. This was her world my friends. In a few minutes, the real hazzard comes along.

This guy ain't no drunk. He's cool and deliberate. He's not going to beat her up or stab her, or both, like most domestic or drunken rage murders happen. He finds his momment, grabs her shoulders or scarf from behind and quickly pulls her down and skilfully cuts her throat from left to right. He knows exactly where to place the knife for a quick dispatch. Even the medicos, who didn't agree on everything, implied that much. Now, what happens after that, I don't know. I've probably speculated enough.

Oh, one more thing; Mrs. Mortimer didn't see anybody but bagman and later heard what she thought was PC Smith's footsteps after she'd gone inside. Who's footsteps did she say? Well, at least she's not a club member.

Well, one more thing; remember the guy that PC Smith saw with Liz at 12:35 ? He was carrying a parcel- as Tom has pointed out about the same size as a bundle of propoganda sheets from the anarchist printing office in Dutfields Yard. That paper went out on Saturdays. Now, that guy couldn't have been a club member now could he. I'm not implying that he's the killer, but what the Hell happened to him? Oh, that's right, nobody from the club had ever seen Liz Stride until they all gazed at her lifeless body in the Yard. It was like someone suddenly found a fly in their soup.

This case has distracted people so much because witness testimony is most of what we have to go by; and there are plenty of them here. The problem is, its mostly worthless.They can't even get their timings right. Of course, I've been as drunk as Spooner probably was and didn't even know what day it was. No one asked me to go see a dead body while I was in that shape either. Packer is just as reliable as these clowns. Nobody is ever going to get a handle on this case unless they read between the lines- And in that case, I'll fall back on the quote below my signature again- My disclaimer.