Did jack kill liz stride?

[c.d.]

Why are you assuming that the spot where she was found was the same spot where she serviced her client? If she serviced her client back in the yard, she might have been on her way out. At this point, if her killer was going to kill her, it was at this spot or he would have to let her go on her way. It could have been a last desperate effort on the part of her killer.

c.d.

[Sox]

Why are you assuming that the spot where she was found was the same spot where she serviced her client?

Umm thats not what I said, in fact I said the exact opposite.

[Tom_Wescott]

Further back in the yard would not have been good as people lived in the small cottages. Besides, I'd be careful in assuming that the women chose the spot. The Ripper liked to stay near an exit.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

I guess I read that incorrectly then.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Forgive the interruption... but Ive been following the various discussions since I stopped posting and since Ive discovered today that my profile has not yet been deleted, I thought that some members posting on this thread might like to have a better sense of what was where at 40 Berner Street, based upon some of the more recent assertions. The rough outline is mine, the artful re-creation was courtesy of Jane Coram.

The "passageway" is where Liz was found, about 18 feet from the side door.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

I'm so pleased, sincerely.

The Grave Maurice is a prophet.

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

Typical of Perry Mason, the 'artist reconstruction' is not accurate. But of course that shouldn't stop us from treating it as such, should it.

And Michael, your account has not been deleted because you have not sent and e-mail or PM to Stephen asking for it to be. You know that as well as I do, so drop the charade. Now please go send that e-mail or PM to Stephen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Dutfields Yard

Hello Everyone,

You all have made some good points and I do think we can analyze the situation with Stride that night with reason- despite what our notions are as to who killed her.

Michael, I'm glad to hear from you. Even if I disagreed, you made me think, or at least work harder to bolster my own claims. We all need to be rational in our speculations, and not dismiss the obvious. I have to say, however that the diagram of Dutfields yard is not accurate. The gates were about 4 ft each, connecting to the opposite buildings. A very narrow passage. It expanded, to the left, 2 more feet, farther back, then went straight to the back of the yard. The turn to the right, in the back was not as far as the diagram shows.

Tom, I really don't think Liz cared about the constable. Whatever the laws were about soliciting, the cops seemed to not bother with the prostitutes unless there was a formal complaint. Records show that policemen were chastized by their superiors for arresting prostitutes unless they were causing a disturbance- ie- Eddowes and the fire engine impression. These women were pretty much allowed to do business as long as it didn't disrupt others.

What intrigues me about Liz's murder is that for years she was considered an afterthought in comparison to the others- a buildup to Mitre Square. Most writers glanced over her in the overall picture. Just imagine, if she had been mutilated there wouldn't be any controversy about the victims of Jack The Ripper. It would have all tied in. She's the caveat; The unanswered link in a string of murders that took place that autumn. It would have fit so well. But it didn't, And we are left to speculate why.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Hunter,

Liz had been arrested 7 times in the last year or two, so I might have to disagree with you regarding her indifference to cops.
The 'fire engine' story about Eddowes was apocryphal. It never happened.
I completely agree with you regarding Stride's treatment. Most Ripper books do a mediocre at best job of researching her case. This is what drew me to her murder, the fact that it was ignored. Of course, that has changed. Now she has almost as many threads and as many cranks as Mary Kelly!
I personally believe that the key to solving the murders lies in the 'double event'. Somewhere in there you'll find Jack. Let everyone else look in Dorset Street!
I think what most researchers do is study the case overall and get a strong general understanding, but then find themselves 'pulled in' to certain areas or individuals of the case. They choose us moreso than us choosing them. In my case it's the Berner Street Mystery. That's why I get kinda pissy when people treat it like a joke, such as your boy, Michael.
Anyway, I've changed my mind from a few years ago when I felt that Stride didn't get enough attention. I now feel it's not how much you get but whether it's the right kind.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Tom,

Sorry, nothing to do with my thread, but you said that the story of Kate Eddowes getting drunk and immitating a fire engine to be a story.

I am a bit confused, can you clerify, just so I dont have another mystery over my shoulders.

Were you refering to just the fire engine immitation as not ever happening, or the whole situation of her being arrested upon charges of drunk and disordily conduct?

I second what you said about the Stride case. She deserves as much respect as the rest, and your right, Jack the Ripper is why the 'Double event' happened.

At least in my opinion.

Yours truly

[DVV]

And Michael, your account has not been deleted because you have not sent and e-mail or PM to Stephen asking for it to be. You know that as well as I do, so drop the charade. Now please go send that e-mail or PM to Stephen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

God forbid, Tom.

He would come back under another alias.

Mary Person, who knows ?

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

He'd come back as Ironsides. Ha ha.

Corey,

Just the fire engine part is made-up. She was actually arrested and all that business. In fact, the new issue of Ripperologist has a photo of PC George Hutt, the 'old ****' who let out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

I am a bit confused, can you clerify, just so I dont have another mystery over my shoulders.


Yours truly

Tiens bon, Corey.
Tout va bien se passer.

Amitiés,
David

[corey123]

Thanks Tom,

I had my own suspicions about that. Just how much more that made the story interesting.

David,

I have no clue what you said, but I can guess it means well.

Thanks

[perrymason]

Typical of Perry Mason, the 'artist reconstruction' is not accurate. But of course that shouldn't stop us from treating it as such, should it.

And Michael, your account has not been deleted because you have not sent and e-mail or PM to Stephen asking for it to be. You know that as well as I do, so drop the charade. Now please go send that e-mail or PM to Stephen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

In fact Thomas I have done so twice...should they decide to do so you will get your wish. And as I said the artist's conception was Jane's....so I can now add Jane to the growing list of people you've personally insulted lately. And my post was only intended to correct the inaccurate post you made, as explained below.

You may be under the belief that your rudeness coupled with your "unique" perspective entitles you to decide on who posts here,...that wouldnt be correct. I certainly didnt stop posting because youre rude and often inaccurate....I stopped because I was arguing with people whose opinions are based purely on Ripper conjecture, not on any existing evidence. Like your "Mutilatus Interruptus".

A statement you made suggests that the yard would have been inappropriate for Jack due the cottages. Unless the cottagers were in the unused stables or the Printing office, most of that yard and the unused stables would be quite dark and very private and not in the view of any cottager residing opposite the wall to the Club. In the same way the killer proceeded to the backyard of Hanbury to be alone with the victim...offering him a run back through the house to escape... the darkest spot in Mitre Square to be alone with the victim..leaving himself 3 possible exits, and in Millers Court to be alone with the victim...having only one exit to the street through a tunnel some 25 or 26 feet from the victims door, and in Bucks Row...leaving himself alone with the victim and with both ends of the street as egress if needed.....it seems logical that the killer if the same man that killed the priors and subsequent "Canonical Group", would have endeavored to get his victim alone....regardless of how dangerous a possible rushed egress might have been to him, be it one exit or 3.

The man that killed Liz Stride did so 18 feet from an open side door, opposite some cottages with some residents still awake, and with the gates to the passageway swung open inwards. Has she been found where privacy might have been obtained...the unused stables, the yard itself, the "interruptus" theorizing would be much more credible....even without any indications that the intent was there. Because, the location would suggest that the killer wanted time alone with his prey.

Im in no way offering an opinion on who killed her, since you've obviously got a lock on how this murder needs to be viewed ....just stating that its clear the location for the murder is in one of the most visible locations should anyone walk out of a cottage, out the side door, from the yard or the printing office, or through the gates. Since it was you who suggested that the yard itself would be susceptible to witnesses from the cottages I thought it prudent to remind folks who did suggest that the yard may have been better for "ripping" that your perception of the cottagers line of sight was incorrect. It would have been far better for "ripping" in that yard or the stables...should anyone have had that goal in mind that night.