Did jack kill liz stride?

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,

an angry thug...?...killing like that...?
Very unlikely, imo.
No great struggle, no stabs, that's what I see.

Amitiés,
David

You baffle me at times....what do you think that physical and circumstantial evidence suggests David? A very brief flash of violent anger....just like thugs demonstrate daily around the world.

Im not sure if being obtuse is becoming a game with you lately, but if so, you can set that aside please. I would expect something more in keeping with what I feel are your capabilities, and not some ill conceived illogical feedback.

Best regards

[corey123]

Mike,

All the evidence that we have is a women with her throat cut, a shallow wound and a scarf pulled tight.
No sign of a struggle or any stab wounds.

No other injurys besides the wounds.

In other words we dont have enough evidence to pin point her death to anyone, not Jack the Ripper(though who better of a suspect for it) or a thug or Fenians.

The evidence in inconclusive.

yours truly

[perrymason]

Mike,

All the evidence that we have is a women with her throat cut, a shallow wound and a scarf pulled tight.
No sign of a struggle or any stab wounds.

No other injurys besides the wounds.

In other words we dont have enough evidence to pin point her death to anyone, not Jack the Ripper(though who better of a suspect for it) or a thug or Fenians.

The evidence in inconclusive.

yours truly

corey....what we have is a woman that was choked using her own scarf and had her throat cut by the assailant as she fell on her side. Thats hardly a clinical murder of one slice...its an assault that ends in murder.

Thugs assault people everyday...sometimes they kill them as well.

Find me a 2 second Ripper kill anywhere else and we can entertain that a bit more.

Best regards

[DVV]

You baffle me at times....what do you think that physical and circumstantial evidence suggests David? A very brief flash of violent anger....just like thugs demonstrate daily around the world.

Im not sure if being obtuse is becoming a game with you lately, but if so, you can set that aside please. I would expect something more in keeping with what I feel are your capabilities, and not some ill conceived illogical feedback.

Best regards

Circumstancial evidence doesn't suggest at all a "thug in anger", and the police in 1888 has logically never suggested so, btw.

As to the rest of your post, well, don't bother to reply to my comments, if you think I'm too stupid.

Amitiés,
David

[corey123]

Mike,

Her scarf wasnt so tight.

She wasnt choked, at least that we know of.

Im sorry but your statement on how thugs assult people every day and "kill sometimes too" doesnt give you any more right to say that it is a domestic violence murder than I have to say it is a serial murder.

So again as they say, you do know an opinion is a theory with no facts right?

yours truly

[Hunter]

uhhhhhhh....

Whoooah !

I guess I had better be careful what I say here so I'll just summarize the point that I tried to make in my previous posts on this thread.

It is my opinion, and only my opinion at this time ( which certainly could change) that the evidence ( to me) points to a sudden and unexpected attack. I offered a scenerio earlier that included Liz applying her known trade and how vulnerable she would be in that position based on known operating proceedures of street prostitutes at that time. She could very well have been on a date, selling raffle tickets...etc... but if she was accousted, and since she was savvy to the streets and since she knew that other women like her had been killed recently, I don't think she would have dropped her guard to anyone she was not comfortable with, let alone turn her back to him in that situation unless she would try to run out of there fast( If he was quick enough I guess he could have grabbed her and spun her around with the cachous glued in her hand) She ( in my opinion) had to be comfortable with whoever she was with ( unless he suddenly came rushing out of nowhere) for her to be killed so quickly. A prostitute about to service a client would be in a most vulnerable position. That the other women seemed to die from someone trusted at the time may be as much of a coincidence as two street murders in the same area on the same night.

Best wishes all, Happy New Year and have a drink and chill out,
Hunter

[perrymason]

Mike,

Her scarf wasnt so tight.

She wasnt choked, at least that we know of.

Im sorry but your statement on how thugs assult people every day and "kill sometimes too" doesnt give you any more right to say that it is a domestic violence murder than I have to say it is a serial murder.

So again as they say, you do know an opinion is a theory with no facts right?

yours truly

Corey,

You need to re-read the transcripts.

Her Scarf was indeed found twisted tightly, the knot misplaced on her neck as a result, she was in fact choked with it, the fraying on the twisted scarf matches exactly the line across the throat, and the evidence suggests she was attacked and murdered in perhaps 2 seconds. That was, as the evidence shows, the end of that assault. Tout fini.

Whatever else you want to read into it is fine by me....however, you might reflect on the fact that one witness says she was assaulted by a drunk thug in front of the gates minutes before being murdered, so I would say both the physical and circumstantial evidence suggests a thug assault gone too far far more than a "ripping'.

David, I think nor suggest no such thing, but I do sense playfulness lately and I read answers that are contrary to what I know you are capable of....so hence the comment.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

spinning

Hello Hunter. Do you think Liz could be spun round and retain her cachous?

The best.
LC

[Sox]

Hi Lynn,

If Liz did take someone in the yard for "business" the likely place would be behind the gate because that was the darkest part of the yard and the gate itself would have provided some seclusion.

Best Wishes.
Hunter

I am going to have to disagree with you here Hunter. Behind the gate was quite close to the side entrance and closer to the street lights. On the opposite side & much further back in the yard would have made much more sense....if they had reached the stage where Liz thought she was about to do business.

About the scarf.........''what we have is a woman that was choked using her own scarf and had her throat cut by the assailant as she fell on her side''.....sorry Michael but we really have nothing of the kind. There is nothing in the post mortem to suggest she was strangled & if we believe Schwartz then her earlier assailant could have 'tried to pull the woman into the street' by her scarf no?

You are presenting supposition as fact Mike......If Jack didnt kill Liz Stride, which it appears is the case by the physical evidence alone.....what evidence Michael? That we have Liz Stride lying in a dark location, her throat cut and her rolled onto her side to bleed out, signs of her clothing being disturbed....all classic signs of our Jack.

And can we dispel this myth of a shallow wound please? Phillips says that it was shallow on the right but it was six inches long and deep enough to sever the windpipe, he goes on to say 'You will see by that, as in the other cases, there appears to have been knowledge of where to cut the throat'. But Phillips contradicts himself quite a few times when giving evidence. He states that the only 'recent external injury' is to her throat, but then later bases his scenario of her being pushed to the ground by the shoulders by the bluish discoloration he found there. Dr Blackwell confirms that the marks on Strides shoulders were not bruises and yet assumes that they were caused by Stride being forced to the ground by her shoulders.

And if you read both Phillips and Blackwells evidence they both base their choice of weapon used on the 'not the kind I would have chosen' science....I mean come on.

No bruising on her left side, no bruising on her face, hardly confirmation that she 'fell' to the ground during an assault either.

All that is required, as far as an unbiased investigation is concerned, is to admit that Liz Stride could well have been killed by Jack the Ripper.

[lynn cates]

dissimilarity

Hello Sox. Regarding depth of neck wound:

"[Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

But perhaps it was early for "Jack" and he was a bit tired, etc. and so the more shallow cut?

The best.
LC

[Sox]

Corey,

You need to re-read the transcripts.

Her Scarf was indeed found twisted tightly, the knot misplaced on her neck as a result

Actually Michael that is not what Dr Blackwell said, what he did say was...

'There was a check silk scarf around the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled tightly'.

He says that the BOW was pulled tightly, not the scarf itself.

[Sox]

Hello Sox. Regarding depth of neck wound:

"[Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

But perhaps it was early for "Jack" and he was a bit tired, etc. and so the more shallow cut?

The best.
LC

I know Lynn, but once again that could simply be a question of time no? It seems clear that in some cases the killer was trying to sever the head, it could simply be that he had not got to that yet.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sox. Regarding depth of neck wound:

"[Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones."

... that was Bagster Phillips, and Dr Blackwell adds the additional detail that the blood vessels were only partly cut through on the left hand side. He also adds that Stride would probably have bled to death comparatively slowly as a consequence of this.

So, in answer to Sox, not a "shallow" wound as such (the windpipe was severed, after all), but it was by no means as deep as those suffered by Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly - who, by extension and in contrast with Stride, sustained real "gushers" from the get-go.

[corey123]

Mike,

She was witnessed being harrased, neither was it by a drunk thug, the witness was jewish so he may have misinterpreted the words spoken. Also I dont really believe him to be a credible witness.

Again a opinion is only a theory WITH NO FACTS

Good try.

[lynn cates]

sawing

Hello Sox.

"I know Lynn, but once again that could simply be a question of time no?"

I suppose that's possible. So, you're suggesting that those deeper wounds on the other 4 of the C5 were made by something like a sawing action--back and forth--until the proper depth were attained? Very well. Then in Liz's case perhaps you'd say just once over with the knife and no sawing? And no sawing due to lack of time?

The best.
LC