Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave. Schwartz, walking a distance behind BS Man, would not have been able to witness anything occurring in the passageway of the yard, such as the chatting and tossing down, so it must have been the pavement. I also suspect Stride was not thrown down but fell down. What Swanson and Schwartz didn't know is that Stride had a deformed leg, so her balance would have been compromised. Essentially, what Schwartz saw was a man move a woman out of the way of the gate. He did not witness an "assault" and certainly didn't see Stride murdered as I often see mentioned. BS Man was either Stride's killer, the accomplice to Stride's killer (Pipeman), or he was Morris Eagle returning to the club after walking his girlfriend home and not happy to find an old (to him) gentile prostitute blocking his way.

Wick,

That's what my post said. They were recent, meaning within roughly 15 minutes prior to or after death. As for shoulders, I was paraphrasing, not quoting. Bottom line is Schwartz noticed connection between the man and Stride's shoulder and this was prior to any knowledge of shoulder bruising. Might be a coincidence, might not. Stride's body laid in the yard for many hours before being moved, so the bruising could hot have occurred by the men moving her body. The bruising would not have been caused by sexual intercourse from behind as Stride's dresses would have prevented this possibility. She would have had to bend far over beyond his arm reach, which she would have done if servicing a man, but it would have made his squeezing her shoulders impossible. To be honest, the bruising is the only element of the case that remains a mystery to me, unless we suppose there were two men present.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Sometimes I have bruises that I have no idea about. I may suddenly remember that I bumped into a counter or something, but I have no connection of a painful situation with the bruising. usually, I have no idea. I submit that the bruising has many possibilities and it would be futile to suggest that any possibility is more likely than another. As for coital bruising...some people bruise more easily than others. It doesn't matter if Stride was wearing 6 dresses. Someone squeezing her with moderate pressure could have bruised her. I don't have a clue as to how they got there, but I could give you 10 logical scenarios that could not be refuted.

Yet, good to see you Tom.

Cheers,

Mike

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Tom

Schwartz, walking a distance behind BS Man, would not have been able to witness anything occurring in the passageway of the yard, such as the chatting and tossing down, so it must have been the pavement.

Yes Tom, but Swanson's summary says "and had got as far as the gateway" whilst the Star account says "he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards however he heard the sounds of a quarrel and turned back".

So clearly at some point Schwartz drew level with the Yard, started crossing the road, and looked back. At the point where he drew level with the Yard and at the point where he looked back (on the diagonal so to speak) he could well have seen into the Yard.

Essentially, what Schwartz saw was a man move a woman out of the way of the gate. He did not witness an "assault" and certainly didn't see Stride murdered as I often see mentioned.

How very genteel. So being pushed back into the passage (Star) or thrown down onto the footway (Swanson) has transmogrified from an assault (Anderson) through a "pulling about" (Home Office) to being moved about (Wescott). I wonder what it felt like to Liz Stride?

Technically of course, (and I stand to be corrected) assault is only the threat or threatening behaviour preceding violence, whilst as soon as physical contact is made battery is commited. Which happened here?

BS Man was either Stride's killer, the accomplice to Stride's killer (Pipeman), or he was Morris Eagle returning to the club after walking his girlfriend home and not happy to find an old (to him) gentile prostitute blocking his way.

We know this for a fact do we? I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of this fact. Otherwise it's a line of reasoning no stronger than assuming pipeman might have been Stride's latest pickup.

Since we're now talking speculation, it'd be interesting to know, exactly where pipeman could have appeared from...it's well outside the licensed hours, but could the pub have had a "lock in"? Or could the accounts be confusing enough that he actually appeared from the chandlers?

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

Here's the thing Observer . If my house was broken into on three occasions and on two of the robbery's the three padlocks that secure my gun cupboard were smashed off before my guns were stolen , but on the third occasion only two padlocks were smashed off , and my guns were safe .. it wouldn't take me too long to figure out those pesky robbers were disturbed ..

That's a poor analogy Moonbegger. It didn't happen like that.

Using your analogy the Nichols murder would have been commited after the Chapman and Eddowes murder's.

Using your analogy in a sequence that mirror's the actual events, the Nichols murder is first. Consequently how would you know that the robbers even found your gun cupboard? You do not have a precedent at that time.

Also, using your analogy, the robbers break in again(the Kelly murder) and even though they have plenty of time, and they know there are valuable guns in your house, they fail to take them.

Doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

How many minutes would it take after the cutting of the throat for the blood to stop oozing out ?

Quite some time I'm told. After the heart stopped beating, not many seconds after the throat was cut, there would still have been blood left in the body. Without the heart to pump the blood out through the wound, the remaining blood would have oozed out due to gravity.

Paul may have even felt the freshly killed Polly still twitching ..

Twitching? His testimony does not include the word twitch, nor anything like it. "A slight movement of breathing but very faint," is what he said. Believe me, the poor woman was not capable of breathing by the time Paul arrived on the scene, her last breath had long gone. Paul was mistaken.

LLwellyn's TOD, in my opinion, is inconclusive as to whether the killer was disturbed.

It is a safe bet that Cross interrupted the killer from completing his regular MO ..

His regular MO? Before the Nichols murder he didn't have a regular MO. Nichols was the first time he'd opened a woman up. You cant look at the later murders, and determine that before he murdered Nichols, his MO was to remove women's uteri!

As for Kelly !!! I don't have the foggiest .. but I am working on it

I've already covered Kelly earlier in the post.

Regards

Observer

[c.d.]

We also don't know the BS man's intent in all of this. Was it to hurt Liz and therefore an indication of his level of anger or was it simply a next time move when I tell you to move or that's what you get for mouthing off to me? I think it was the latter and that he simply cussed her out after that and moved on.

c.d.

P.S. Hey Tom, I mentioned in another thread that it was nice to see you back posting again but in case you missed it, I am repeating it here.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi GM, Ceeds, all, thanks for the warm welcome.

I agree with GM that Stride was likely an easy bruiser, considering her age, weight, alcoholism, and just general health. Nevertheless, the bruises occurred around the time of her murder. If they appeared on one shoulder, I wouldn't think too much of it, but both shoulders? It makes for interesting speculation, but I'm not sure any of us could elevate it beyond that. I have my ideas but nothing that struck me as an 'aha!' revelation.

As for the word "assault", I'm American, so possibly it means something different over here? We typically think physical abuse when we hear that word, though you're probably more on the mark as for actual definition. As I mentioned before, I don't know that Stride was "thrown down", but I don't know she was not. All I know is she was pulled from the gateway (where she was standing, while BS Man stood on the pavement) out towards Fairclough Street, then BS Man turned around and pushed her. I don't assume his attention was to knock her to the ground. BS man may have been her killer, though I think Pipeman slightly more likely. Or perhaps neither man.

What I KNOW is that the Stride crime scene evidence should be considered separately from Schwartz because we don't know how or if the two interrelate. But I've always been intrigued how the much maligned Star account talks about pushing her by the shoulder...what an odd little thing to make up, if indeed they did, because that strikes me as something a witness might have actually seen. It's just not something you make up. And then to find out her shoulders were indeed bruised.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

The problem is that "assault" is a very heavily loaded word whether it is used correctly or incorrectly in this instance. If you insist on using assault it seems extremely unlikely that Liz would have been "assaulted" twice in a span of a mere 15 minutes and the almost inevitable conclusion is that the BS man had to be her killer. On the other hand, if you substitute "pushed to the ground" instead of assault, and bear in mind that prostitutes often get hassled, the BS man as her killer does not seem to be such a foregone conclusion.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

And substitute 'pushed to the ground' with 'removed from gateway' and what do you have?

"Assault" is a powerful word and used too often by writers who want to impress something upon their reader. Any prostitute working the east end could expect to be treated poorly multiple times a day. Just in the Ripper case I'll point out that Sadler was assaulted thrice in one day, Emma Smith and Margaret Hames went out in the evening together, Hames returns with a beaten face followed later by Smith with fatal injuries. Coles goes out with a friend - a man approaches the friend, she refuses his custom and punches her in the face - only because Coles accepted the man's offer was she not beaten. You want to know what WAS rare in 1888? Women getting killed on the street with a cut throat...and yet many will have you believe Stride and Eddowes were unrelated murders. These same writers will tell you how impossible it is for a prostitute to be "assaulted" twice in the same area. Rather selective reasoning I would say. The odds of Stride being an unrelated murder are extraordinarily small, whereas the odds of an East End prostitute being treated roughly on the night of her murder would be nowhere near as small. However, neither scenario is impossible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

...the BS man as her killer does not seem to be such a foregone conclusion.

And the police didn't consider it a foregone conclusion either.

[Wickerman]

Since we're now talking speculation, it'd be interesting to know, exactly where pipeman could have appeared from...it's well outside the licensed hours, but could the pub have had a "lock in"? Or could the accounts be confusing enough that he actually appeared from the chandlers?

Hi Dave.
Someone suggested that due to the doorway being on an angle, and that it was windy that night, that he may have stepped into the shelter of the doorway to light his pipe.
From what I understand this beershop closed about 9:30 pm - or thereabouts.

[Wickerman]

...The bruising would not have been caused by sexual intercourse from behind as Stride's dresses would have prevented this possibility.

Seeing as how other prostitutes had similar bruising, I'm not understanding why Stride's "dresses" should have prevented any bruising whereas the clothing of other victims did not.
How thick do you think her clothing was, and why?

She would have had to bend far over beyond his arm reach,

She would be standing pretty well straight up Tom, leaning forward a little, but not bending at all - no need.

To be honest, the bruising is the only element of the case that remains a mystery to me, unless we suppose there were two men present.

No need for two men.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Nelson closed at 9pm. There is still much debate about where he stood. Did he emerge from the Nelson doorway or from around the board school corner? I used to be firmly of the opinion that he emerged from the Nelson doorway, but now I'm not as sure. My opinion is that Schwartz would have ran away from Pipeman and not towards him. In fact, I think that's common sense. A comment from Abberline suggests that Pipeman actually started off on foot prior to Schwartz. The Star states he appeared from the 'pub' (i.e. Nelson), but the less detailed Swanson digest of the reports is far more ambiguous. When all we have is a flawed newspaper report and an ambiguous police statement, the best tools left to us are our common sense.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. What other prostitutes had shoulder bruising? I'm not sure what your experience is with having sex with women who are standing straight up and facing away from you, but it's quite difficult. Add long dresses to the mix and it can be almost impossible as when you pull the dress up to gain 'access' they work as a barrier between the two of you. We probably shouldn't discuss this too much publicly for fear that Lynn Cates might decide to use this as part of his 're-enactment' series and I'm not sure we'd recover from seeing those photos.

Between you and me and Dr. Blackwell, if we're wanting to assume the bruising occurred during a sexual act, we should consider fellatio:

1) Stride had cachous (i.e. breath mints).
2) She was soliciting a number of men that evening around pubs.
3) Her shoulders would be the most accessible to a man during this particular sexual act.
4) There was no evidence of vaginal intercourse and the whole "through the thighs" thing you read about in old school Ripper books is nonsense. Having said that, vaginal intercourse would not always be obvious post mortem, so absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, but still something to consider.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

inter-femoral

Hello Tom. Welcome back.

No chance for that kind of re-enactment--Mrs. C. long since out of practise. (heh-heh)

Regarding inter-femoral intercourse, I had the painful experience of a gay colleague describing it to a few of us adjuncts during office hours. He went into minute detail. (I would have said "blow by blow" description, but thought better--heh-heh.) Claimed that the gay community had learned it from studying prostitutes.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

And yet the anus is not the vagina. Apples and oranges, Lynn. Your gay friends are very strange for watching prostitutes with johns.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott