Did jack kill liz stride?

[Observer]

Hello Colin. Thanks. Almost missed your post.

Well, she did if G & B are to be believed. But if not, we must make a tentative hypothesis about the origin of the flower--and after midnight. I'm game.

Cheers.
LC

First Marshall, now two more witnesses bite the dust. Any more? Amazing the lengths some posters go to preserve a theory.

Why should we not believe Best and Gardener's testimony? Is there any reason to doubt them?

[Ginger]

we must make a tentative hypothesis about the origin of the flower--and after midnight.

I don't think a flower would have been hard to come by, even late at night. "Toilers in London" (Multiple authors, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1889) reports:

It is a fact that on Saturdays more flowers are sold in the London streets than on any other day of the week ; and these are bought by working-men and working-women out of their small, hardly-earned wages.

[...]

Flower-girls may be divided into two classes: those who sell by day and those who sell by night. It is needless to say which class is the most respectable. Sometimes girls of the first class are obliged to stay out until three o'clock in the morning, because they cannot get rid of their merchandise; but generally such girls go home at dark, and get up early in the morning to replenish their baskets. Girls of the second class come out at nine or ten o'clock at night and stay in the streets until the morning.

[...]

It is a melancholy fact that flower-girls of the second class-namely, those who sell at night-make the greatest profits. Such girls are much patronised by a certain class of women, and can earn as much as £3 a week by selling flowers outside theatres and music-halls. Girls who sell by day make sometimes 10s. a week, generally less, and during wet weather little or nothing.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't think a flower would have been hard to come by, even late at night. "Toilers in London" (Multiple authors, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1889) reports:

It is a fact that on Saturdays more flowers are sold in the London streets than on any other day of the week ; and these are bought by working-men and working-women out of their small, hardly-earned wages.

[...]

Flower-girls may be divided into two classes: those who sell by day and those who sell by night. It is needless to say which class is the most respectable. Sometimes girls of the first class are obliged to stay out until three o'clock in the morning, because they cannot get rid of their merchandise; but generally such girls go home at dark, and get up early in the morning to replenish their baskets. Girls of the second class come out at nine or ten o'clock at night and stay in the streets until the morning.

[...]

It is a melancholy fact that flower-girls of the second class-namely, those who sell at night-make the greatest profits. Such girls are much patronised by a certain class of women, and can earn as much as £3 a week by selling flowers outside theatres and music-halls. Girls who sell by day make sometimes 10s. a week, generally less, and during wet weather little or nothing.

Hi Ginger,

The fact that she had a maidenfern arrangement on her breast is a potential clue as to where her 6d went, that she earned doing charwoman duities...that afternoon....and for weeks leading up to that moment in time. "Among the Jews". The point here is that she had been getting regular work...for those who still favour prostituting as the reason for her being there. Worth noting that if she wanted to find clients that night, some 200 men attended the meeting that night and most left before midnight....so if she was looking for clients, and she had no other commitments, she would have been better off being at 40 Berner at 11:30, not 12:30.

To address a comment made by The Caucasian Man, endless review and critique of what has been factually recorded is pointless,... what has been assumed or proposed is another matter. The facts regarding Liz Strides death do not reveal her soliciting...that is assumed....they do not support an interruption of her murder...another assumptive...and they do reveal that Liz Stride was unique in the Canonical Group due to her recently steady legitimate work up until the very night of her death. they also reveal that she left the lodging house with 6d, and that she was wearing an arrangement and had mints that she did not have when she left said accommodations. The facts are she was determined by a physician to not have alcohol in her system...using methods that were obviously sufficient for the times and should not be compared with testing and techniques now available for their efficiency. She was cut once and left untouched to bleed out and die.

No matter how many years you study the materials available, those facts dont change. Its been several decades for me....and if youre new to the study you should be encouraged that you need not spend the same countless hours debating the evidence to determine those facts. A newbie and a person who studies the cases for years are bound by the same evidence....its the conjecture that makes it more entertaining. And less scientific.

Liz was killed by a single cut just inside the gates of a Jewish mens club, wearing a boot length skirt she tried to get lint brushed before leaving her lodging house, ankle height boots, her garments in place, and lying on her side...with a fern and flower on her breast and cashous clutched in her hands.

So when you read that she was soliciting and met the ripper who was disturbed while in the process of seeking to mutilate the corpse...youll know whats fact and whats guesswork....and how well the guesswork fits the known facts.

Ive learned that in most cases, it doesnt.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

game

Hello Dave. Cute.

I recall the tale of an Aggie who went big game hunting in Africa. A scantily clad young lady popped out of the brush, flashing him a big smile. Eying her from to top to bottom, he asked, "Are you game?" "Mmm, hmmm!" came the reply.

He shot her. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

credo . . .

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Absolutely. Recall the noses did not match.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

get up

Hello Ginger. Thanks for posting that. Perhaps that is what the coppers meant by "get up."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

So where was her date when she was killed and what exactly was she doing standing by herself outside of the club?

c.d.

[Observer]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Absolutely. Recall the noses did not match.

Cheers.
LC

Absolutely? Dream on.

John Gardener.

"I COULD SWEAR

She is the woman I saw at the Brickayers' Arms and she has the same smile on her face now that she had then."

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Absolutely. Recall the noses did not match.

Cheers.
LC

I believe "not look so prominent" was the phrase used. Not that the nose was different, or her build was different, or her age, or her size. Afterall, Liz was now lying on her back as opposed to earlier seen standing on her feet.
If B & G were lying then they managed to get a remarkable amount of details correct.

[lynn cates]

similarities

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I'll give you this, they DID get the flower--something Marshall never saw.

But let me ask, have you seen all the similarities between the two Liz's listed?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

So where was her date when she was killed and what exactly was she doing standing by herself outside of the club?

c.d.

Hi cd,

If I knew those answers, and could prove it, then we could finally move onto something else, eh?

Ill tell you what I consider when assessing them though.....Liz had recently been finding steady work among the Jews, and there she is outside a Jewish mens club at 12:35am with cashous and flower arrangement...she paid some attention to the detail of her ensemble that night, evidenced by the flower and the request, which was denied, for the use of a lint brush for her skirt before she left her lodging house...a skirt which was boot length. We have a qualified eye spotting Liz at 12:35 just outside the club, and we have one member state that he walked from the front door and entered the passageway at 12:40 upon his return to the club, and another who stated he was in the passageway as far as the gate from 12:30 until 12:40. Neither member said they saw each other.... or Liz. Curious that. When you have 2 witnesses at 12:40 not record seeing someone that a policeman said was there at 12:35am, and not acknowledge seeing each other, one wonders why. Did they lie about what they "didnt" see? Or were they just poor observers. We know that Liz just ended a relationship that week, and we know from her history that she would leave one man for another for a period of time while still in a relationship. We know that she left an item with another lodger, presumably to retrieve when she returned...when, she didnt say. We know she had 6d when she left the lodging house.... without her flower arrangement. And we know she didnt have the 6d when found dead, but she did have flowers on her jacket and cashous in her hand, things not present when she left the lodging house. We know the meeting at the club ended an hour before she is seen in the area, and almost everyone has left.... excluding some 30 odd members. We know that the side door to the passageway was ajar.

Adding those things up suggests to me that there may be a few reasons why she was where she was that night....perhaps to meet a new beau, and likely a Jew....perhaps to clean up after the meeting for Mrs Diemshitz, maybe she was waiting for the last stragglers to leave before she started....perhaps she was to meet someone at the club and go off somewhere with them..maybe having nothing to do with a club member or attendee. Perhaps she was told to meet with Mrs D after the meeting to apply for some work there, perhaps a member hired her to work for their family during the high holidays...some observances began the following day,.....and perhaps she arrived too late to solicit sex for pay from the many attendees and members leaving just after the meeting ended.

That last one is to placate....because I believe the overall evidence, including the very significant fact that she had been at work among the Jews in the weeks leading up to that moment, paints a picture of Liz either performing or arranging work or a social occasion...which the flowers and cashous and lint brush request seem to indicate.

Yes, she may have been there to solicit...albeit long after the crowds she would "work" had gone home....but there is more evidence that suggests she was there at a time she had pre-arranged, and if that was after the club meeting was over and most everyone had left, if she arranged to meet anyone there at that time it would likely be someone from that club.... or the cottages.

You and others seem unwilling to accept any answer that doesnt include a Ripper as the killer cd, all I can say to that is that the murders that earned the killer that nickname were not simple one slice deals. Liz Strides was. And there is no evidence known to mankind at this point that suggests or indicates that after that single slice her killer intended to do anything further to her. "As if she was gently lain down".

I believe the reason we know anything about Liz Stride's death is due to it's timing ...... because had it occurred at any other period in time other than in the middle of the alleged Ripper murder spree in the Fall of 1888, and just before a "Ripper like" killing occurs 20 minutes walk away that same night,....she would just have been another victim of the common street violence rife in that area at the time.

There is nothing remarkable about her murder other than the date and time, but there certainly is when youre talking about Polly, Annie, Kate and Mary.

Cheers cd

[Ginger]

I'm kind of an agnostic on the prostitution issue, although on the balance I think she usually wasn't, but may have had to do what she could to make ends meet sometimes, as happens to this day.

Disregarding that, how likely would she have been to find domestic work among the members of the club? From all that I've read about it, it seems to have been frequented by poor, young single men who were for the most part socialists or anarchists. These aren't the sort who usually hire domestic servants, even part-time. The Imperial Club, near Mitre Square, would have been a better choice for that.

Also, while ethnically Jewish, I don't think many, if any, of the members were observant. I can't think High Holy Days would have changed her chances of getting charwork overmuch. Also, if the online calculator I consulted (http://www.jewishgen.org/JOS/josfest.htm) is correct, they were already over anyway, having taken place in the first part of September in 1888. (Now that I think about it, that may have been the reason she had so recently been finding work among the Jews.)

I'm explicitly not drawing a conclusion about why she was there, but trying to find charwork seems one of the lesser probabilities to me. That being said, she may have had some special knowledge of the situation, or may have just thought it was worth a chance. I doubt we'll ever know what she was intending that night.

[Wickerman]

... We have a qualified eye spotting Liz at 12:35 just outside the club, and we have one member state that he walked from the front door and entered the passageway at 12:40 upon his return to the club, and another who stated he was in the passageway as far as the gate from 12:30 until 12:40. Neither member said they saw each other.... or Liz. Curious that....

At the time Eagle & Lave walked through the gates to/from the club side door, Stride and any client could have been further down the yard where it was darker & more private.

http://www.jacktheripper.de/

[lynn cates]

Hay, now.

Hello Jon. If they were much further back, they would be LITERALLY having a roll in the hay. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

We have a qualified eye spotting Liz at 12:35 just outside the club, and we have one member state that he walked from the front door and entered the passageway at 12:40 upon his return to the club, and another who stated he was in the passageway as far as the gate from 12:30 until 12:40. Neither member said they saw each other.... or Liz. Curious that. When you have 2 witnesses at 12:40 not record seeing someone that a policeman said was there at 12:35am, and not acknowledge seeing each other, one wonders why. Did they lie about what they "didnt" see? Or were they just poor observers.

Liz was outside the gates. Why notice her? If she was on Club property, that would be a different matter. Outside the gates she is one of the many unfortunates, the faceless nameless masses that haunt...the naked city.

Mike