Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

Just bumping the thread. I posted twice earlier and due to the temporary malfunction, my posts appear further up on the thread.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Tom,

Yes, please do let us know when you publish that article.

Thanks

[Observer]

Cant seem to be able to post

O

[corey123]

Observer,

The posting order seems out of wack.

Its making me upset.


Admin will fix it soon enough.

[c.d.]

Hi Dave,

The police reports indicate that the police had checked Liz's background and found nothing to indicate a possible suspect due to some type of relationship with Liz. Certainly they might have missed something in their investigation but it would seem to reduce the probability that her killer was someone she knew.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Whats to stop her killer staging this effect, that is the cachous between forefinger and thumb?

Hi Observer. The doctors said her fingers had clinched upon death. Had the killer pried apart her fingers to place the cachous, they would not have folded back into the position the doctor found them in.

Liz made a particular effort to look good that night before she went out, she tried to borrow a clothes brush to get smart before she went out.
She had already earned her doss money before she went out, cleaning for her landlady. The fact that she went out with the landlady and then came home to get dressed up indicates that this was a special occasion.
Like all of the victims, Liz was a casual prostitute, when needs must rather than a full time occupation. It would seem on this night that she didn't need!

Hi Dave. Unless Liz's man carried a portable hat rack with him, she was with (or seen in the company of) numerous men on the night of her death. It's true she had earned her doss money, but to her that would have been drink money, otherwise she would have reserved her bed with it. Polly Nichols was wearing a new dress and a 'jolly bonnet' she felt had increased her business. If Polly would purchase clothing with the intention of looking better to gain clientele, why can't Liz attempt to borrow a clothes brush for the same end?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for pointing that out-again. I was feeling a little redundant by repeating the same answer every few pages on this thread. Coming up with possible theories on this case is fine- we all do it, but it needs to be based on some probability. It is difficult with Stride because of conflicting testimonies. If there is a common link to all of these murders ( including Tabram as well) it would be that these women were probably soliciting ( which made them easy targets). The attacks were sudden, unexpected and unprovoked and they all occurred in a narrow time frame. Though violence and even murder did happen in East London this type of series was unprecedented. All of that must be considered when weighing the probabilities of each of these crimes, but is often dismissed.

I personally believe that some of the so called sightings of Liz with a man, especially the ones around the Faircloth St. area could be the other couple referenced by Mrs. Mortimer. The press interviewed the female on the day after the murder and she admitted that she and her beau were there.

Looking forward to your essay on Kidney. It would be timely right now. Keep us posted as to when and where it will be avaiable.

[FrankO]

The evidence indicates no such thing, unless he changed his clothing every twenty minutes. Although the obvious suspect here was Kidney, the police ruled him out.

I agree that the evidence doesn’t clearly suggests that, TGM. However, what you and others suggest is based on the assumption that the witness descriptions were accurate, and that just isn't a fact, unfortunately. What usually is remembered well are striking features, how someone behaved, the overall look, but not the individual pieces of clothing or other details.

In our modern eyes Kidney would be the obvious suspect here, but was he actually back then? Unfortunately, there’s nothing in the remaining information to support this notion.

What I find quite odd is that the authorities seem to have made nothing of the fact that he denied having had a quarrel with Stride just prior to her murder, even though he would have had good reason to do so, while Catherine Lane had no reason whatsoever to make up something about Kidney and Stride having split up because of a quarrel. Maybe they believed him over Lane because quarrels were commonplace and Stride had appeared before the Magistrate quite a few times, which supported his other testimony.

As to the police ruling Kidney out: what if they just didn’t suspect him to begin with? If so, then they wouldn’t interrogate or investigate him, and if they didn’t investigate him, they wouldn’t rule him out.

The police certainly seem to have believed very quickly that she was another Ripper victim. Maybe they had made up their minds before even knowing about Kidney. Or maybe they were mislead by his odd behavior, both at the police station and at the inquest. Who knows?

All the best,
Frank

[The Grave Maurice]

Well maybe. The case is full of maybes. But look at the descriptions of the men seen with Stride in post #822. I would be inclined to give more weight to the testimony of William Marshall and PC Smith, and they are obviously describing different men.

Kidney's stormy relationship with Stride was well known and came out at the inquest. The police would have been derelict if they hadn't attempted to establish his whereabouts at the time of the murder. The fact remains that not a shred of evidence has surfaced to indicate that Kidney saw Stride after the evening of September 25.

[Hunter]

Prostitutes and Suspects

From Swanson's Summary
October 19, 1888

'The body was identified as that of Elizabeth Stride, a prostitute, it may be shortly stated that the inquiry into her history did not disclose the slightest pretext for a motive on behalf of friends or associates or anybody who had known her.

...The numerous statements made to police were inquired into and the persons ( of whom there were many) were required to account for their presence at the time of the murders and every care taken as far as possible to verify the statements.'

[Tom_Wescott]

Good eyes, Hunter. Those are two very important points among many that establish Kidney's innocence of the murder of Stride. Many books (starting with AP Wolf's in 1993) have tried to build a case against Kidney as the killer, and every single one have had their facts wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

In fact, Kidney killed every canonicals except Stride.
I'll produce my evidence after dinner.

Amitiés,
David

[Hunter]

I hope that Justin's work ( shown on the other thread) is able to duplicate the ambient lighting of the area as well. I believe many people have a misconception of Dutfields Yard. It was so narrow that a six foot man could lay down across it, stretch his arms, and almost touch both sides. The ground floor windows on both sides were in the back half on the yard. The upper floor windows were so high that the light was cast on the opposite building. It was much darker at the front of the yard than the back. Liz was killed in a dark passage near a wall. So were the others, excluding Kelly. The fact that a door that was often used was nearby did not stop Tabram, Chapman or Eddowes from being slaughtered.

One more point about Kidney. He shows up (the next day I believe) at the police station, drunk, wanting a "strange" detective to accompany him him to make inquest about Liz's murder. His conduct, to me, suggest a bereaved and confused individual who probably felt resposible for Liz having to return to the street after their breakup. It had happened before, but hadn't ended like this.


P.S.- Is anyone else having to scroll Justin's pictures?

[corey123]

Hunter,

Great way of explaining it.

You just showed me a good mental picture of Dutfields yard. Kidney, poor guy.

Oh well, I will have a look at Justins thread.

Yours truly

[corey123]

Hi all,

Re-opeing this great thread for anyone interested in keeping it going.