Did jack kill liz stride?

[c.d.]

I also think people get hung up on the word "assault." By way of example, let's say you're watching the local news and the lead story concerns a woman "assaulted" just down the street from where you live. You listen intently for the details of the "assault." It turns out that a male passerby walked by a woman and patted her on the rear end and said "nice butt" before walking away. That constituted the "assault." Would you still feel the way you did before you heard the details of the "assault?"

c.d.

[martin wilson]

Hi David,
I see they were evicted 3 years later so I could argue that they may have been threatened with this before and so a murdered woman on their doorstep would have been the last thing they needed,however I'm only really motormouthing and I really want to get back to my favourite hobby horse 'the jewish connection' so I'm going to cease and desist.
What are 'Toms Works' by the way? I see Tom Westcott posts on this site, is he publishing?
all the best mart

[DVV]

Hi Martin,

What are 'Toms Works' by the way?

Many dissertations on casebook, to begin with.

I see Tom Westcott posts on this site, is he publishing?

Absolutely. His pen-name is Karen Trenouth.

Amitiés,
David

[martin wilson]

Hi David
Thanks for the info, it's off to amazon for this boy, although thank god I am far too thick to write a book, the reviews on this site were a bit much, I would have thought unless you possess a time machine and a gun you cant really dismiss anything,not to that extent anyway , I lost interest in ufology because of special interests,(you are always asked to keep an open mind in the introduction, but challenge the author and their mindest becomes as fundamental and absolutist as any Taliban member, in fact I'll go further and say if a Taliban member had a comparable mindset, even within that organisation he would be known as 'the extremist loony') from now on I will stick to my own little bit
regards martin

[martin wilson]

Although not Jenny Randles, I would buy her shopping list if she published it

[Scotland Yard]

Hello SD,

I have some. I too think the murder of Liz Stride to be done by jack the ripper. I would say if the GSG WAS(I have yet to deside on it) written by Jack, that he ment to write it on the gates of Dutfields Yard.

Hi folks,

Very interesting discussion. Far too much food for thought for me to comment on in the time I have, but just wanted to pick up on something.

Corey, you make the point that the GSG, if written by the ripper, and (assuming he was indeed Stride's murderer) was originally intended to be a message written on the gates or wall of Dutfield's Yard.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Its true that the copper who spotted the graffiti in Goulston Street claimed it wasn't there a short while before he made the discovery. If this is accurate then, of course, my idea that it was written before either of the two murders is invalid. (DVV - my point was also that the graffiti was intended to refer to the Berner street murder.)

However, even if the ripper had the time to descerate Stride's body in the manner he no doubt would have wished and then chalked up the message on the gates or wall next to her, the debate about the graffiti would still be ongoing. No matter how many people in the Working Men's club testified that the graffiti was fresh and had not been there earlier, there would always be a question mark over its connection to the murder. The multiple possible meanings of the message itself would make it the kind of enigmatic graffiti anyone could have written up on the builiding whether for or against the Jewish community. The ambiguous nature of the message is just yet another one of the maddening pieces of evidence that can be used to argue any number of different theories.

[Tom_Wescott]

Absolutely. His pen-name is Karen Trenouth.

I can dare to dream.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sox]

One thing I have been wondering is how possible is it that Stride's apparent epilectic fits might have played a role in her attack and/or murder

None. Stride 'claimed' epilepsy when brought up before the magistrate on drunk and disorderly charges.....and he never believed her either.

[Tom_Wescott]

Mattwill brings up a good point that really is hardly ever addressed. It doesn't matter if Liz Stride (aka Epileptic Annie) actually suffered from the disease, what is important is that these 'fits' would occassionally get her out of a pinch. Could she have faked one with her killer? I doubt it, but it's worth considering. In light of their being absolutely no physical evidence that allows us to say how her killer subdued her and got her to the ground unconscious, I'm forced to conclude that she fainted. Maybe this was an epileptic fit or seizure?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sox]

If this is accurate then, of course, my idea that it was written before either of the two murders is invalid. (DVV - my point was also that the graffiti was intended to refer to the Berner street murder.)

Well let's be straight here. The GSG does not refer to any murder, not even the Mitre Square one. At worst it is meaningless drivel, at best it is anti-semitic scrawl, what it clearly does not do, is refer to any murder. If that piece of apron, had never been found there, then we would be entirely ignorant of that graffiti.

Something else we should be clear about too, that the International Working Men's Educational Club was the exclusive domain of Jews is most likely a myth. It's like saying that Conservative Clubs are only frequented by Tories, or that Miners Clubs were only frequented by pit workers, or Labour Clubs are a refuge for socialists only. Clubs like these were formed all over England, and still are, but they are rarely hotbeds for a political cause. Rather they support a cause through funds gathered via socialising.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sox,

Wow, you sure speak with much authority about the graffiti. The police and many modern researchers hold quite a different opinion from yourself.
And while you're correct about the club not being exclusatory, it was about 95% Jewish.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Maybe this was an epileptic fit or seizure?

Tom Wescott

Very unlikely, Tom, for "the appearance of the face was quite placid".

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

Sox,

Wow, you sure speak with much authority about the graffiti. The police and many modern researchers hold quite a different opinion from yourself.
And while you're correct about the club not being exclusatory, it was about 95% Jewish.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Right Tom, please tell me exactly how the GSG refers to the murder of Liz Stride or Kate Eddowes. Prove to me that the club was frequented by 95% Jews please.

On the night that Liz Stride died there was a meeting held there,a political meeting. If she had died on a night when the 'Whitechapel Morris Dancers Club' had been using the place, who would the witnesses have been then Tom? It was a social club Tom, and that is a solid fact, and social clubs hire out the hall to anyone who wants to use it. No doubt, it had a strong political flavour, but to think of it as the strict domain of Jews is a mistake.

The GSG does not refer directly, or indirectly, to the murder of any woman in Whitechapel. That is not my opinion Tom, that is a solid fact. No matter what meaning you give it, based entirely upon what was written on the wall, it is not a reference to murder. Only the apron piece adds context to a murder Tom, the writing does not.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Sox,

You're talking two different things here, one is the GSG, which is purely a matter of interpretation, so I'm not telling you that you're wrong, I'm just questioning how you can feel positive you're correct in saying it had nothing to do with the murders.
As for the club, you are in fact wrong. It was owned by the club members. It was used for their purposes, and their purposes were socialism and anarchism.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sox]

Hi Sox,

You're talking two different things here, one is the GSG, which is purely a matter of interpretation, so I'm not telling you that you're wrong, I'm just questioning how you can feel positive you're correct in saying it had nothing to do with the murders.
As for the club, you are in fact wrong. It was owned by the club members. It was used for their purposes, and their purposes were socialism and anarchism.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom, you do not, and did not, have to be a member of a social club in order to use it. Card carrying members of these clubs would be people who paid subscriptions in order to help keep it running, non-members supported the upkeep via hire of it's hall/facilities, door fees and use of it's drinking facilities. The nature of it's clients, on any given night, would depend upon what event was happening on that date. People like Diemschutz would have been present most of the time, because they were on the committee that ran the place.

Please note, that most of the witnesses questioned that night were described as club members which is in keeping with the event that had taken place in the club that night.