Did jack kill liz stride?

[caz]

Hello Jon
Perhaps so, but (to extend my earlier point) I'd no more refer to JTR as a "strangler" than I'd refer to him as a "throat-cutter". He may have done both those things, but so have many others since time immemorial. That's why I find Stride's inclusion in my personal "canon" a little more problematical than I'd like.

Hi again Sam,

Every victim who was ripped had her throat cut first, so first and foremost this was a man who was comfortable cutting throats, whether it was always merely the means to an end (ie the mutilations) or occasionally an end in itself (eg if he ever got pissed off with a prospective victim and wasn't necessarily in the mood, or in the best position, to mutilate her).

If women routinely had to fear cut-throats while out on those streets earning money, looking for boyfriends or enjoying a few drinks, before the Tabram murder caused such a big sensation, I might have been more inclined to give Jack the benefit of the doubt regarding the Stride murder. But let's face it, such murders were not and still are not the norm, even on the mean streets of the East End on a Saturday night.

If Jack only ever cut throats as a means of getting inside a woman's abdomen, which in turn was a means of removing organs, what went wrong in Buck's Row? How likely is it that Jack the Organ Finder was having a night in, while a "mere" throat-cutting abdomen slasher was abroad in Whitechapel?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline.

"At present he has no alibi and cannot have been a million miles away. There is nothing in the evidence that even hints at him being unable or unwilling to carry out this particular crime."

Nor any to implicate him.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Apart from his proven track record in working quickly and effectively with a knife before disappearing without trace?

There is even less to implicate anyone else on the planet at the time.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caz
What the evidence supports is a throat-cutting on the one hand, and a more extensive throat-cutting with extensive evisceration/mutilation on the other. Can we legitimately classify Jack as a "mere" throat-cutter?

Hi Sam,

I'm a bit surprised to see such a question coming from you.

Firstly, Jack was a man. Secondly, he was a killer who carried a lethally sharp knife and could use it effectively, in conjunction with overpowering his selected victim with apparent ease. How can we legitimately 'classify' him as a "mere" anything? (Not sure about the speech marks as I didn't use the word "mere".) We could classify him as Jack the Knife, but even that may be too narrow as he could also have been involved in the murder of Emma Smith or Catherine Mylett.

When asked such questions my usual reply is to look at the murders attributed to Peter Sutcliffe and ask yourself if we can legitimately classify him as a "mere" Yorkshire Ripper, a "mere" hammer wielder, a "mere" screwdriver thruster, or a "mere" wimp, on the occasions his victim survived and made a full recovery.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Indeed. Now, let's go further. Would they also have frowned upon solicitation and employing those SAME women for other purposes?

I think they would have frowned upon solicitation as a group, and because of their youthfulness and ideologies, would have frowned upon servants in general.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

I don't see that she was with any one man for an extended period of time, but of course we can all believe what we wish for whatever reason. Sounds to me like you've romanticized this murder to some extent.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom
Not romantacizing, just trying to piece together the evidence into a plausible scenario.

She was seen by various witnesses over the course of more than hour with a man that was described as wearing a peaked cap, and also Lawendes described that the man eddowes was with was wearing a peaked cap. My conclusion from this is that they were in all probability the same man and therefor that the ripper was wearing a peaked cap and that both stride and eddowes were killed by the ripper.

Prostitutes who are actively solicitating don't typically spend too much time with one man, as stride was with peaked cap man. My conclusion from this is that she was not actively solicitating. She was seen earlier by other witnesses in various pubs so I draw from this she may have met peaked cap man while she was in a pub and then they started walking around with each other, where she was then seen by the other witnesses.

A murdered victim who is seen being assaulted only minutes before being found dead (and again by a man described as wearing a peaked cap) more probably than not was killed by that man. I think any police detective would say that the man seen assaulting her would be person of interest number one, especially since no other suspects are in the picture. Also, without evidence to the contrary the eyebwitness evidence of the assault should be considered truthful.

[curious]

According to my research, the last person to see Nichols alive was Jack the Ripper.

Just kidding.

Actually, Holland may have been the last, but what I said was the person who claimed to have seen Nichols alive later. You'll have to wait just a couple of months for that one, because a) it's complicated and b) it's in my book which I HOPE to have out in January, though we know how that goes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Keep us posted.

[lynn cates]

Kate

Hello Jon.

"On the other hand, and primarily because a simple knife wound to the throat is ambiguous, then the real clue may lie in the method he used to get Stride down in such a position to enable him to use the knife.

We do have good reason to believe that strangling/suffocation is the first act of the Whitechapel murderer."

Bingo.

But beware--you may be saying a good bit about Kate as well.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

new threads

Hello Gareth. Precisely.

Say, if it takes Liz to get you out of retirement, perhaps I should start some new threads?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good time

Hello Abby.

". . . she was simply out having a good time bar hopping."

And why not? Why is this always overlooked?

And if this were a case of "Jack" trying to finagle her into a dark corner, apparently it worked.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

implication

Hello Caroline.

"At present he has no alibi and cannot have been a million miles away. There is nothing in the evidence that even hints at him being unable or unwilling to carry out this particular crime."

Nor any to implicate him.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

plus ultra

Hello Michael.

"The answer is a definite, "No." These socialists would have frowned upon having maids and such. They were struggling for better wages and later for labor unions. I don't believe for a minute that they would have paid the crappy wages to these ladies that forced them to ply a different trade on the streets."

Indeed. Now, let's go further. Would they also have frowned upon solicitation and employing those SAME women for other purposes?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Then who was the last to see Polly Nichols?

And what kind of different stuff?

According to my research, the last person to see Nichols alive was Jack the Ripper.

Just kidding.

Actually, Holland may have been the last, but what I said was the person who claimed to have seen Nichols alive later. You'll have to wait just a couple of months for that one, because a) it's complicated and b) it's in my book which I HOPE to have out in January, though we know how that goes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

Hi Curious, you live up to your name, and I like that. It's rare I get asked about the tidbits I drop. I think many are more interested in their own theories than they are in actually learning about the case, thus the general lack of curiosity. I recently did an interview for Jenni Shelden's blog and mentioned that Emily Holland was not the person who last claimed to have seen Polly Nichols alive. The interview got a few comments on the forums, but not one person...not one...asked me about that. Strange. I would have asked me about that. But to answer your question, I just read different stuff.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Then who was the last to see Polly Nichols?

And what kind of different stuff?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Caz
What the evidence supports is a throat-cutting on the one hand, and a more extensive throat-cutting with extensive evisceration/mutilation on the other. Can we legitimately classify Jack as a "mere" throat-cutter?

Not if we're talking about method of dispatch. Neither was more or less extensive than the other as both women were killed with a single cut to the throat. That's it. Everything else that happened to Kate was after her death, and in all the Whitechapel murders these things occurred differently and in different degrees. If going by medical evidence alone it would have to be concluded that Stride and Eddowes were possibly killed by the same man. When working in all other factors it must be concluded they were most likely killed by the same man. Any other conclusion based on the same evidence, whether it be - 'certainly' or 'unlikely' - would be in error.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

hello
there are other options to what she was doing that night other than solicitating or on a date. just two off the top of my head are that she was out looking for a new boyfriend or sugar daddy due to her breakup or that she was simply out having a good time bar hopping. A woman who is actively solicitating typically dosnt hang out and walk around with the same man over an extended period of time. and it seems that she was, with peaked cap man.

unfortunately for her he was the ripper. she probably met him by chance at a pub and they started hanging around together- with him trying to finagle her to a dark corner for sex and she playing rather coy as she saw him more as a posible boyfriend and knowing that that posibility would be ruined if she had sex with him so soon(and perhaps because she was wary of the ripper). which is why she wound up with only a cut throat and not mutilated.

after a while of this cat and mouse he probably got fed up with all the time and money he spent on her and realizing she was not going to go off in a dark ally with him lost his temper and just attacked her out of frustration.

which is what schwartz saw.

I don't see that she was with any one man for an extended period of time, but of course we can all believe what we wish for whatever reason. Sounds to me like you've romanticized this murder to some extent.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott