Did jack kill liz stride?

[Tom_Wescott]

More interesting observations from Tom here.

I do think the ripper would have read all the reports about his crimes and been amused by all the false rumours and outlandish theories. After Chapman, when the womb harvesting theory took over from the Leather Apron scare, he could have set out to make monkeys of them all with his very next job, hence the early, distinctly shaky start with Stride; the second attempt that left Eddowes without one kidney and her womb (possibly only taking the latter to show this was the same "womb harvester who wasn't") and facial mutilations for the first time (to demonstrate this was really not about organs for profit or medical research - "the morons"); and of course the three locations - including the apron dumping site - with Jewish connections, to suggest the focus had just been wrongly switched away from those tricky "Juwes".

Of course, we could dismiss all these factors as incidental and have Stride killed by a different man for different reasons, then Eddowes killed within the hour and just fifteen minutes' walk away by yet another man for different reasons again. But would we end up closer to what actually happened that night or a million miles further away?

Love,

Caz
X

A million miles further away. Good posts, Caz. A shame we're the only ones talking about Stride on this thread.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

I do think the ripper would have read all the reports about his crimes and been amused by all the false rumours and outlandish theories. After Chapman, when the womb harvesting theory took over from the Leather Apron scare, he could have set out to make monkeys of them all with his very next job, hence the early, distinctly shaky start with Stride; the second attempt that left Eddowes without one kidney and her womb (possibly only taking the latter to show this was the same "womb harvester who wasn't") and facial mutilations for the first time (to demonstrate this was really not about organs for profit or medical research - "the morons");
X

So the Evidence for the "womb harvester" .. Two taken and most likely a third if the killer had not been interrupted with Polly , as all the evidence suggests he was .. (she had been opened up and ready to be plundered) just like Annie & Kate .
Evidence against him having a real agenda in removing at least two uteri .. he didn't take Kelly's ! or he may have been having a jolly up , and playing with the press .. although there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the latter , but we still do have two wombs carefully removed and taken away .. and who knows, perhaps he only needed two anyway, but what we do know is , whoever took them had a desire to take them, and take them he did . And how does ..

facial mutilations for the first time (to demonstrate this was really not about organs for profit or medical research

suggest or demonstrate any thing of the kind ?

The fact is we just don't know none of us do .. although I do like Toms press theory , even if its the whole chicken and egg malarkey( where we know it was the egg first in this case) but at the same time I don't think we should overlook what's on the table right in front of us.

Of course, we could dismiss all these factors as incidental and have Stride killed by a different man for different reasons, then Eddowes killed within the hour and just fifteen minutes' walk away by yet another man for different reasons again.

indeed .. just as coincidental as the woman murdered in Bucks row a few hours before Polly ;; there was a lot of it about .

incidentally ... If Stride had been killed on a different night would she still be in the C5 ? than ask yourself the same question regarding the other 4 .

cheers

moonbegger

[Tom_Wescott]

But she wasn't killed on a different night, Moon. She wasn't killed in a different hour. She wasn't killed in a different area. She wasn't a young woman, or an old woman, or a woman with an "honest" job. She was a middle-aged prostitute killed in the same area, in the same manner, and at the same time as the others. She wasn't killed with a blunt knife, her killer did not behave in a different manner than in any other case. Myths, myths, myths.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[moonbegger]

Hello Tom , I was just reading through some dissertations and stumbled across this ol chestnut ..

Our new understanding of the medical evidence carries with it many theory-shattering ramifications. Most obvious of these is that the mutilations to Nichols' abdomen were of the same character as those later found on Eddowes and Chapman, an indication that the Ripper's objective had been the same: the procurement of organs. The killer displayed the same comfort and skill with the knife as he would later show with Chapman, forcing us to reconsider the idea that each subsequent murder was an escalation and rendering a comparison between the killings of Nichols and Martha Tabram tenuous at best. The notion that the Ripper was interrupted in his efforts by the sound of the approaching footsteps of Charles Cross becomes almost irresistible.
Jack the Ripper killed to mutilate, and he mutilated to obtain organs. He may have enjoyed the fear he invoked, but there was no passion in what he did.

I think within the current discussion , this article needs to be championed .

As far as Stride is concerned .. Killed in a fairly well lit yard , next door to a busy club with people in and out regularly ( hardly the dark remote out of the way spot usually preferred by our killer ) also a long knife had been used to murder Nichols, Chapman, Eddows and Kelly whilst a short round knife had killed Stride , at a much earlier time . I feel there are more reasons to rule her out than rule her in . is it so inconceivable to believe there was more than one killer on the streets that night ?

cheers

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

fracas

Hello Joe. Thanks.

But the bottom line seems to be that the fracas happened east of the spot where the body was found.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Eh?

Hello MB. Fairly well lit?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Moony,

What I meant was that the ripper may have been attempting to demonstrate, with his first facial mutilations (on Eddowes) plus the kidney removal, that it wasn't all about taking wombs - for profit, medical research or anything else. I wasn't saying we can possibly know either way, but the 'extras' he did in Mitre Square most certainly challenged the womb harvesting theory, if not trashed it totally - so much so that some commentators even today cannot accept this was the same killer who opened up Nichols's abdomen and took away Chapman's womb.

Again, the ripper may have left Kelly's womb, kidneys and other parts around her body after removing them to try and underline the fact that the womb harvesting theory was nuts, or maybe he was just bored with taking the same organs away with him, or thought leaving them made for a more satisfyingly gruesome spectacle. But we are all guessing. What we can say for a fact is that mutilation murderers are, and always have been, mercifully few and far between.

...I don't think we should overlook what's on the table right in front of us.

You mean Kelly's pet crocodile?

incidentally ... If Stride had been killed on a different night would she still be in the C5 ?

As Tom said, she wasn't killed on a different night. We have to explain what actually happened, and the only suspect we know of, who was on the attack close by that very night, and doesn't require a conventional motive for slitting the throat of a Spitalfields unfortunate, was the ripper. It seems perverse to me that anyone would see him as a poorer suspect than some unknown one-off knifeman who would have needed a jolly good reason to murder Stride in that busy location and risk the gallows for it. It's not as if double events (typically involving 'unfinished business') are rare when a serial offender is active.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

As far as Stride is concerned .. Killed in a fairly well lit yard , next door to a busy club with people in and out regularly ( hardly the dark remote out of the way spot usually preferred by our killer ) also a long knife had been used to murder Nichols, Chapman, Eddows and Kelly whilst a short round knife had killed Stride , at a much earlier time . I feel there are more reasons to rule her out than rule her in . is it so inconceivable to believe there was more than one killer on the streets that night ?

cheers

moonbegger

Difficult to say what 'our' killer 'usually preferred' when we have such a small sample, and almost all of those have been disputed as his own work.

You are wrong about the knife being short and round (?) - we simply don't know it was different from the one(s) used to kill the others. It was sharp enough to kill Stride with one slice, which again points to someone who knew what he was doing and had cut throats efficiently before. A one-off killer (especially one who was known to Stride) would have been unwise to leave without knowing the single wound would quickly prove fatal, while the ripper didn't necessarily have to worry.

Of course it's conceivable that another knifeman was out that night and decided the unfortunate Stride must die, but why is it more likely than a fatal encounter with the man who went into action quite a bit earlier than he had done on the previous outings?

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

.

As far as Stride is concerned .. Killed in a fairly well lit yard , next door to a busy club with people in and out regularly

So well lit that Diemschitz didn't see her and actually had to come back to the lump on the ground to see what it was. A busy club...yes..and so it would be more likely that an inexperienced one-timer would kill someone rather than someone who could dispatch people quickly? The logic isn't good here.

Mike

[moonbegger]

Hello MB. Fairly well lit?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn , Ok , maybe not so fairly well lit But there was light from the club window's and still a fair commotion going on in the club, plus people in and out of the yard at an unpredictable rate.

The deceased and her companion must have seen the lights of the clubroom, and the kitchen, and of the printing office. They must have heard the music and dancing, for the windows were open.

three windows overlooking the courtyard. From twenty to thirty members remained, some staying in the lecture-room and the others going downstairs. Of those upstairs a few continued the discussion, while the rest were singing. The windows of the lecture-room were partly open.

cheers , moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

So well lit that Diemschitz didn't see her and actually had to come back to the lump on the ground to see what it was. A busy club...yes..and so it would be more likely that an inexperienced one-timer would kill someone rather than someone who could dispatch people quickly? The logic isn't good here.

Mike

So why did he not strangle her first on this occasion Mike ? Also ..

Coroner] Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Just Like Polly ,
but in this case..

The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing.

Coroner] Was there anything to indicate that the cut on the neck of the deceased was made with a pointed knife? - Nothing.

Knife .. unsecured Location .. Not strangled first ..just one cut across neck ..

would be more likely that an inexperienced one-timer would kill someone rather than someone who could dispatch people quickly? The logic isn't good here.

Mike , there was many people , ex soldiers , soldiers, butchers , angry Ex's , and yes, other killers out on those streets that night, and other nights .. I think it is just coincidence that ties Stride to the C5 .. like I mentioned earlier there are many unrelated coincidences tied in and around the Whitechapel murders .. I think in all probability this is just another one .

But of course it could be the same killer Mike , but why so many variances in the killers MO ?

cheers

moonbegger

[lynn cates]

right

Hello MB. Thanks.

"But there was light from the club window's and still a fair commotion going on in the club, plus people in and out of the yard at an unpredictable rate."

Agreed.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

So why did he not strangle her first on this occasion Mike ? Also ..

How do we know she was not strangled/choked?

This is the detail I am waiting to see someone come up with a convincing argument - one way or the other. Was she, or wasn't she?

[sleekviper]

Hello Lynn!
That is the point to bruises. If Stride dies exactly where Schwartz last sees her, I doubt that bruises are on the shoulders and collar bone. Does not make any specific person a killer, but may make BS bully the one that caused the bruises.

[The Good Michael]

But of course it could be the same killer Mike , but why so many variances in the killers MO ?

"Strangle? No time. Time to kill quickly, no time to play with the victim, but by God the next one will get hers!"

Every one of the murders varies in many details, too many for this thread to discuss. If you accept a hurried murder; to kill quickly and be out of there (or to lurk until able to flee), there is a convenience that covers any perceived discrepancies, and some might say, "Too convenient."

I agree with Tom and Caz about the absolute lack of throat-slitting prostitute murderers at the particular time (and before and after)and that pushes me into the Stride/JTR camp. Others will try and deny that Stride was soliciting for the sole purpose of making her different to the others thereby lending credence to the idea that Stride was a different hand. It's a game and the outcome is far from certain.

Mike