a theory on the Stride murder

[Hunter]

The knife

As Tom has mentioned in regards to the knife, they only had one cut to the throat to go by. The physicians seemed to argue that a long bladed knife would be difficult to position under Elizabeth's jaw, given her perceived position itself. ( lying on her left side and a stone under her neck). The possibility of her being on her back when her throat was cut, then in agony rolling over on her side and drawing her knees wasn't considered- except perhaps where the mud was located on her clothing. But lifting her head by the scarf would have eliminated that obstacle, in my mind.

Because her death was likely not as swift as Nichols or Chapman, she may have had a little time to physically react to her mortal wound, placing her in a posture that she may not have been in when the fatal blow was struck. There is the added posibility, as Tom also pointed out on another thread, that the scene was compromised by Spooner, Johnston and/or Lamb before Blackwell arrived.

Whoever did it still knew how to dispatch someone with a sweep of the knife, instead of stabbing and dragging the point across the throat ( which was usually what happened in a domestic-i.e- Sarah Brown.

It should also be remembered that much of the information that the doctors used in evaluating the weapon in the other murders were from the nature and depth of the abdominal mutilations themselves; which obviously weren't there in this case so they had little to go on.

[Trevor Marriott]

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Whoever did it still knew how to dispatch someone with a sweep of the knife, instead of stabbing and dragging the point across the throat ( which was usually what happened in a domestic-i.e- Sarah Brown.

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As you quite rightly point out the cut to her throat was totally different to the other victims, and in addition to all the other previously discussed issues regarding her murder must make a clear case to suggest she was not killed by the same hand that killed the others.

I would disagree about the killer knowing how to despatch someone. You have to remember that in those days the most accepted method of killing a person was to cut their throat. Strides cut is nothing out of the ordinary and shows no specific skill. Wheras the others were with out a doubt killed by someone who did know how to kill using a knife, killed in the same way a commando would kill when approaching a foe from behind. Covering the mouth, Sticking the knife deep into the central throat area to prevent any sound coming from the victim, then drawing it deeply across.

[Jon Guy]

It should also be remembered that much of the information that the doctors used in evaluating the weapon in the other murders were from the nature and depth of the abdominal mutilations themselves; which obviously weren't there in this case so they had little to go on.

Hi Hunter

He had a lot more to go on than that.

Phillips used the previous victim as a comparison.The Coroner asked him:

Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Why didn`t Stride have the tell tale marks to her vertebrae ? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly all did. Different knife? Different M.O. ? Different killer? There was a different something.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Hunter

He had a lot more to go on than that.

Phillips used the previous victim as a comparison.The Coroner asked him:

Is there any similarity between this case and Annie Chapman's case? - There is very great dissimilarity between the two. In Chapman's case the neck was severed all round down to the vertebral column, the vertebral bones being marked with two sharp cuts, and there had been an evident attempt to separate the bones.

Why didn`t Stride have the tell tale marks to her vertebrae ? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly all did. Different knife? Different M.O. ? Different killer? There was a different something.

I have already stated this fact many times as have others but there are certain posters who no matter what will not accept these very relevant facts

[Adam Went]

The cut to Stride's throat was still severe enough to sever her windpipe and cut through her carotid artery, so this is no small wound we're talking about. Everybody knows that the wounds she sustained weren't as bad as the other victims, but this could have been for any number of reasons, not least that Dutfield's Yard was the darkest of the 5 locations - so much so that the killer, like Diemschutz when he discovered the body, wouldn't have been able to see his hand in front of his face. If you can't see what you're cutting in the first place, how are you supposed to judge the depth, length, etc?

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Adam

The cut to Stride's throat was still severe enough to sever her windpipe and cut through her carotid artery, so this is no small wound we're talking about. Everybody knows that the wounds she sustained weren't as bad as the other victims, but this could have been for any number of reasons, not least that Dutfield's Yard was the darkest of the 5 locations - so much so that the killer, like Diemschutz when he discovered the body, wouldn't have been able to see his hand in front of his face. If you can't see what you're cutting in the first place, how are you supposed to judge the depth, length, etc?

But if you know how to kill and use the same method doesnt matter whether its dark or not you know how you are going to hold the victims and know that you are going to insert the knife and then draw it across. This did not happen with Stride and i say again its different from the others. Take a look at the diffrence in the size of the neck wound in Stride and then look at the wound on Eddowes neck there is a big diffrenece in the width of the wound for a start.

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jon Guy]

As for Jon's point.....Dr. Phillips also thought that Catherine Eddowes was killed by a different hand. 'Nuff said about him.

Hmmm..let me see...a Victorian Police Surgeon of over twenty years experience in the East End, and there`s you guys...with the greatest of respect...nuff said.

Can you please direct me to where I can find Phillips comments that Stride was killed by "a different hand."

[Tom_Wescott]

Why didn`t Stride have the tell tale marks to her vertebrae ? Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly all did. Different knife? Different M.O. ? Different killer? There was a different something.

Different circumstances. Stride was not on even ground like the other women. Her neck was lying over jagged stones which clearly made it difficult for the killer to maneuver his knife as can be seen by the necessity for him to use her scarf to lift her head into position. By doing this, his own weight is shifted and his balance and strength compromised. It should not be overlooked that the wound was severe enough to kill her, so the 'job' was accomplished, but given the circumstances of this murder it's understandable that the wound wasn't as deep.

To answer your earlier question about Pipeman, the story that he had been picked up by the police comes from the report in The Star on October 1, 1888, which carried Israel Schwartz's statement to them. To quote from the article.....

The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.

I don't know why Adam points to this news report as the genesis for the idea that Pipeman was known. We've had this discussion before, but it seems accuracy is taking a backseat to ego. This report in absolutely no way indicates that Pipeman was known to anyone. It simply states that a man fitting a description provided by Schwartz was arrested and let go, which means the man was neither Pipeman nor BS Man. As I've stated before, the first suggestion that Pipeman was known to the police comes from Paul Begg in his book 'The Facts'.

Can you please direct me to where I can find Phillips comments that Stride was killed by "a different hand."

There aren't any, because it was Eddowes whom Dr. Phillips said was by a different hand. Dr. Phillips and his assistant, Dr. Percy Clark, were of the opinion that medically speaking they could only attribute three murders to one hand, those being Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly. Having said that, when taking other factors into consideration, Dr. Phillips seemed to be comfortable allowing Stride into the equation and, perhaps a little more reluctantly, Eddowes. Superintendent Thomas Arnold felt that Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Kelly were all Ripper victims, but not Eddowes.

Hmmm..let me see...a Victorian Police Surgeon of over twenty years experience in the East End, and there`s you guys...with the greatest of respect...nuff said.

Hmmm...let me see...Virtually every detective and medical man who worked on the case felt Stride was a Ripper victim, and there's you guys repeating every mistake found in Ripper books over the last two decades...with the greatest respect...nuff said.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I personally think, that Stride was a Ripper victim. JtR just was about to get caught!

All the best
Jukka

[Trevor Marriott]

Different circumstances. Stride was not on even ground like the other women. Her neck was lying over jagged stones which clearly made it difficult for the killer to maneuver his knife as can be seen by the necessity for him to use her scarf to lift her head into position. By doing this, his own weight is shifted and his balance and strength compromised. It should not be overlooked that the wound was severe enough to kill her, so the 'job' was accomplished, but given the circumstances of this murder it's understandable that the wound wasn't as deep.

You cannot say that is correct that she was killed whilst on the ground.

Furthermore you cannot say that the other victims were killed on the ground. I previously asked posters to put this to the test. i notice no one came back and said that my test was wrong.

I re iterate that cutting someones throat was the accepted method of killing someone.

Hmmm...let me see...Virtually every detective and medical man who worked on the case felt Stride was a Ripper victim, and there's you guys repeating every mistake found in Ripper books over the last two decades...with the greatest respect...nuff said.

Well i would suggest that given their level of lack of expertise in dealing with serial killers it was only natural that they thought all the murders were connected. On the face of it that appears to be the case but careful scrutiny of all the facts and evidence would now suggest otherwise

Tom Wescott

If I can be of any further help to you Tom please dont hesitate to contact me

[Tom_Wescott]

You cannot say that is correct that she was killed whilst on the ground.

Sure I can. I have a number of times.

I previously asked posters to put this to the test. i notice no one came back and said that my test was wrong.

That's because no one reads your posts.

If I can be of any further help to you Tom please dont hesitate to contact me

Okay, who's your publicist? Your dentist? Your hairstylist? What you lack in case knowledge and understanding you definitely make up for in marketing and PR.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Trevor Marriott]

Tom
You just cant help yourself can you

Sure I can. I have a number of times.

Yes we know you are repetetive to the point of boring people to death so its about time you stopped and changed the record.

That's because no one reads your posts.

Well you obvioulsy do and you obvioulsy failed to test my theory, or did you and i was proved right and you havent the b...s to admit you were wrong.

Okay, who's your publicist? Your dentist? Your hairstylist? What you lack in case knowledge and understanding you definitely make up for in marketing and PR.

I am as aversed in as much case knowledge as you the only difference is that I look at the whole case and I am not obessed with one particular aspect which you seem to be with regard to Elizabeth Stride and who murdered her and how she was murdered.

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

I've been working on a study of Phillips and Bond lately. Mainly because there's little on Phillips and I believe he is largely misunderstood. Bagster was a straght-laced kind of guy. He compared the wounds of the victims in a literal sense. He felt that was his only job. He also got caught up in the 'anatomical skill' controversy over the Chapman murder and Baxter didn't help matters when he linked Phillips' statement to the 'American doctor buying uteri' story, though Phillips never apparently said that he agreed with Baxter. Still his strict clinical analysis of each of the 4 victims that he saw is incisive. That he seemed to not consider other circumstances that may have made each murder 'different'; he felt that was not his job but that of the detectives working the case.

By the way Trevor, Phillips would be the first (and was actually) to tell you that all of the victims he saw had their throats cut while lying down. Please read the inquests. They are very helpful.

[Tom_Wescott]

Well you obvioulsy do and you obvioulsy failed to test my theory, or did you and i was proved right and you havent the b...s to admit you were wrong.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You really didn't register on my radar until you started posting in the Stride threads...except for that time years ago when I dropped $20 at Amazon.com to get your book, 75% of which was copy-and-pasted inquest reports.

I am as aversed in as much case knowledge as you the only difference is that I look at the whole case and I am not obessed with one particular aspect which you seem to be with regard to Elizabeth Stride and who murdered her and how she was murdered.

LOL. You want to take me on in a Stride-free trivia contest, Trev? It seems very important to you to one-up me for some reason. Maybe that would be your chance. Or maybe not.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

By the way Trevor... Please read the inquests. They are very helpful.

Yeah, Trev, just go to your bookcase and pick out the book with your name and a skull on it. The inquests comprise the first 3/4 of the book. Happy reading!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott