a theory on the Stride murder

[Fleetwood Mac]

JTR didn`t need to be seen smoking a pipe, he would merely only have to offer them a light or some baccy.

In the case of McKenzie, she didn`t have any matches on her so I am assuming that she approached her killer for a light, or was offered baccy and a light by her killer.

In the case of Stride, Pipeman was said to have followed Schwartz, taking himself out of the equation.

Hi Jon....

Yes that's a possibility.

In terms of Pipe Man following Schwartz....I was reading Schwartz's testimony the other night but can't find it again...was it the press who stated this or Schwartz? I thought I read from Schwartz's testimony that Schwartz couldn't say whether or not Pipe Man was following him?

Another thought....I was thinking of location......

It's generally agreed that JTR knew the area/streets....assuming this is the case.....then I'd say it's more likely than not that he would have chosen the location beforehand.....which would have afforded him the capacity to weigh up the risks in order to choose a spot he felt minimised the risk....as opposed to wander the streets before choosing a woman and hope for the best with the location.

I suppose just as a gay man chooses a cruising area or a club....or a straight man chooses a dogging site or a club....a murderer would be sensible in sorting out the location that afforded him opportunities and minimised the risk of being caught first and foremost.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he was waiting in dark squares hoping a woman would wander in on her own....seems he could have been waiting forever.....but it seems reasonable that he chose the location and waited around in doorways and the like before propositioning a woman when she came along. I don't see him trawling pubs....at best I see him as a having a couple of pints to kill a bit of time in between skulking around and to calm the nerves a bit.

And this could explain why he chose to kill Stride after her altercation with another man....with the risk of increased attention that that entails......the explanation being that he had already made his decision to kill in that yard in the preceeding hours.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I was very interested in your theory (that Stride was a diversion) and am also of the opinion that the murders were planned. The fact that Catherine Eddowes was so keen to know the time when she left prison and walked in another direction than you would expect points to the fact that she had planned to meet someone (I think). Also think she may have tried to boost her confidence with drink beforehand.

No evidence, of course, but the murderer does seem to be extremely arrogant and unafraid.

I'd suggest that JTR simply knew prostitutes' patches and knew quiet spots nearby that suited his purposes. In other words.....he knew where to go to get what he wanted because he knew the area.

And....as said....I'll go with the theory that he'd chosen the location in advance and he waited for a prostitute to come along who was willing to go into a dark corner with him.

I really don't see a massive mystery in this at all.

To say Eddowes was meeting someone....it's possible of course.....but not likely since she'd been locked up for a while and couldn't determine the time when she was released. Too much speculation for my liking to be of much use.

The simplest answer is probably the one......she went to pick up a client...dawdling on the way for whatever reason....or speaking with other clients beforehand.....JTR knows mitre square.....knows it's a decent spot for him....so he's heading into the area too....he spots her....sizes the situation up and does his thing.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Fleetwood Mac!

I've been thinking about the same thing.

But I think, that he picked his victims by random!

All the best
Jukka

[curious4]

Yes, of course, but speculation is half the fun! It is possible that she wasn´t as drunk as she pretended and wanted a safe (and presumably warm) place to wait and knew from previous experience that she would be released when she seemed able to take care of herself.

[Steven Russell]

Dear all,
I don't see any reason why the traditional explanation thet Stride and Eddowes were both Ripper victims, and that Diemschutz disturbed Jack before he was able to mutilate does not hold water. No doubt Liz was just as keen to find a sechluded spot in which to conduct business as her colleagues, and would have regarded Dutfield's Yard as a suitable venue.

It was so dark that Diemschutz had to light a match to identify that what he saw was a woman, and dark enough even then for him to run into the club to check that the body was not his wife. Ample time for a well concealed Jack to escape. Had this not happened, we may speculate that Jack would have had time to further defile Stride's remains and fully indulge his sick fantasies. As it was, his ultimate purpose, which was the mutilation rather than the killing itself, remained unfulfilled and he was compelled in his state of high excitement to seek another victim: our poor fire-engine impersonator.

I believe that had Diemschutz arrived ten or fifteen minutes later, then Catharine Eddowes would have made it home to face a "damned fine hiding" (which is bad enough) rather than the appalling fate which actually befell her.

If we accept this argument, then the view that it is highly unlikely for two killers to be on the prowl in close proximity on the same night is irrelevant.

Anyway, for what they are worth, these are my views on the candidacy of Elizabeth Stride as a genuine JTR victim, although I must admit, the possibility of a different knike having been used is a serious stumbling block.

On the flipside of the coin, coincidences do occur more frequently in life than we might imagine. Let us imagine a wholly fictional profile of our killer had been produced at the time which described him as:

Middle-aged
Tall
Thin
Possessing a thick moustache
Present in London at the time
Of some means
Harbouring a hatred of prostitutes, possibly having been married to one
Some surgical skill or training
A way to engage women in conversation due to an interest in cosmetics
Has been suspected of having been JTR at the time or shortly afterwards

We would all scream, "Tumblety!" would we not? But how about Stephenson? He fits our imaginary profile equallly well.

My point is that both men fit the description equally well and yet were definitely NOT one and the same. This is a coincidence and I doubt very much if either was Jack the Ripper.

Just a few rambling thoughts,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

I read somewhere on this board that Pipe Man was identified by someone else but can't find the details? Any knowledge on this..Adam?

I'm not Adam, but I can tell you that Pipeman was never identified. This idea was first suggested in Paul Begg's 'The Facts', and would be a workable idea if not for the fact that in the memos circulated following Swanson's Oct. 19th report (which gave us his Schwartz account), Pipeman was repeatedly called the 'alleged accomplice'. Had he been identified, such speculation as to his complicity would not have been necessary.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Mycroft

Dear Mycroft,
I think you are almost certainly completely right.

Regards,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Here's my two cents on Steven's profile...

Middle-aged Le Grand (35-40)
Tall Le Grand (6ft)
Thin Le Grand (neither fat nor thin)
Possessing a thick moustache Who said this?
Present in London at the time Le Grand (present in the neighborhood of Berner Street at time of murder)
Of some means Le Grand
Harbouring a hatred of prostitutes, possibly having been married to one Le Grand (charged & convicted of numerous attacks on prostitutes, was himself a pimp, and his common law wife was a prostitute
Some surgical skill or training Le Grand (described as adept with knives & very well educated)
A way to engage women in conversation due to an interest in cosmetics Where'd this come from?
Has been suspected of having been JTR at the time or shortly afterwards Le Grand

[GregBaron]

Can't think like JtR....

Interesting thoughts you all but....I'd caution against trying to get into
the mind of JtR.....normal thinking doesn't apply to the antisocial personality...
...I don't think he planned locations in advance because if he did he chose
poor ones in my view....now there probably wasn't many good ones in Whitechapel at that time but........I think we must take into account the thrill realized by the possibility of being caught...there's a fine line between danger and thrill..combine that with the horror invoked by those poor souls upon discovery and the added exhiliration of making fools of the police and you have a perfect triumvirate of the super thrill........now I hope I'm not getting into his mind but I think these traits have been documented in many modern or post JtR serial killers.....We have no idea if he trolled about for hours or if he got a bit liquored up or if he worked specific locations.....all of these are certainly believable...he may have shown his nondescript face all over town on murder nights or he may have come out for the relatively quick kill...all guesswork.....something I do wonder and I haven't heard
discussed is ........was JtR a repeat customer of any of these ladies?
Wouldn't that put one at ease if "Oh yeah, I've done that bloke, he's Ok, he always pays" type of thing........... before Mr. Hyde came out and went for the jugular.....

Greg

[Steven Russell]

Tom Wescott

Dear Tom,
Thank you for you thoughts on the interesting Mr. Le Grand, whom I just looked up. A rum cove to say the least.

My "profile" was a completely imaginary construct intended to show that individuals can share several attributes and therefore that coincidences do occur. It was not in any way intended to be a serious description of the person for which we are all looking.

The reference to cosmetics is about Tumblety's Patented Pimple Destroyer. I also recall Stephenson having hawked some sort of face cream.

Again, apologies if the last part of my post made it look as if I was proposing a serious suspect. I was not. My point was to illustrate that coincidences DO and WILL occur, and we should adopt them as arguments at our peril.

Great stuff about Le. Grand, though.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Steven,

I don't know what Rum Cove means (I'm American), but thanks. Not much yet to look up about Le Grand, but wait for the next Casebook Examiner.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Tom

A rum cove is a dodgy character.

Regards,

Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh. LOL. If nothing else he was certainly that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Steven Russell]

Yes indeed.

Steve.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Fleetwood Mac!

I've been thinking about the same thing.

But I think, that he picked his victims by random!

All the best
Jukka

Hello Jukka.....

Likely......though I was arguing that the locations were decided in advance....well more that it's a reasonable suggestion. I mean....you know the streets....surely you'd take advantage of that knowledge and reduce the risk of being caught in the act/trying to get away....as opposed to choose the woman and hope for the best with the location? I'd imagine getting his kicks and getting away without getting caught were more important to him than picking a certain type of woman.

I know people think differently.....but as a matter of instinct we weigh up the risks and opportunities before making a decision....and even the more risk seeking among us will give themselves a chance when the punishment is too much to bear. For every case where Dahmer was brazen with the police...when he didn't have much of a choice by the way....there are a lot more where he went about his business pretty quietly. I'd imagine that the rule is that serial killers do not take risks to the extent of brawling in the streets with someone they're planning on killing....though you'll always find an exception somewhere.

It would make sense from a purely pragmatic perspective too.....wander round the streets and make life hard work.....or go to a spot where you know a prostitute will be along in a short while.....and wait. Possibly even popping into the local pub for a swift pint to calm the nerves and kill a bit of time.