a theory on the Stride murder

[Pontius2000]

Don't know if this is mentioned before or not. I've been going back and forth lately on whether or not Stride was an actual JTR victim. Everything about it seems wrong.

before the murder, Stride is supposedly seen being assaulted by a man. Her murder is to the south of Whitechapel Rd where all the others are to the north. and her murder took place in an area with more foot traffic than the other locations.

but what if JTR chose this location on purpose? after the Tabram/Nichols/Chapman murders, there was a lot more public and police awareness of a killer on the prowl. What if he chose to kill Stride in that more heavily travelled area. he killed her quickly and stood back and waited for the response. Knowing that her body would soon be found and all the police in the area, as well as public sight-seers, would descend upon the area from all directions. Then, he was able to slip back into his own area (north of Whitechapel Rd), which would soon be completely deserted by all the people rushing to the Stride murder location. This would enable him to kill another (Eddowes) and do what he wanted to do (more intensive mutilations) with the increased liklihood of privacy and not being caught.

So instead of being "interrupted" in the Stride killing, maybe it instead went EXACTLY as he planned it....as a diversion.

If this theory were true, it would say a lot about JTR. It would probably point to him being an "organized" sexual deviant murderer. meaning he was probably of above average intelligence and put more planning into his murders. From Tabram to Kelly, we see a natural progression. If this theory is correct, then in the Eddowes murder he used an earlier killing as a diversion to achieve more mutilation. and then, onto the Kelly killing, he was able to find a prostitute with her own private quarters to kill. and then, this would probably NOT have been by accident. if he was putting that much effort to kill one prostitute as a diversion to murder another, then he probably also put forth effort to actually find a prostitute (Kelly) with her own private room.

[lynn cates]

venue

Hello Pontius. I wonder if Mitre Square should be regarded as his area? True, it is north of WhitechapelRoad, but it might be considered London proper.

Perhaps, here, too you are suggesting a change of venue for covert purposes?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Pontius,

You might be close to the truth. I think it's quite possible that the Ripper, wanting to live up to his new reputation, went out that evening with the intention of killing two women. To achieve this, he must obviously not have any blood on his person following the first murder. Stride's killer would not have had any blood on him. If this is the case, it would also make sense for the man to travel into City territory to kill Kate, and then confuse matters even more by leaving her apron in Met territory!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[blackfingernail]

Hi Pontius, just read your post about your theory on Strides murder and strangely enough I came to the same conclusion about a week ago after watching some video posts on the net.

It appears to me that if the suspect seen pushing her to the ground at 12.45 outside the gates IS him, AND that he deliberatly shouts out 'Lipski' then he is actually attracting attention to himself and the area. He would probably have known the body would be discovered pretty soon as the club was busy with people coming and going all the time.

I do believe Stride is a victim of the Ripper and she was murdered precisly to divert police and public attention, this to give him more time to devote to his grisly work on the next victim. If this is so then it shows him as you say, to be a premeditated and organised killer, someone who can manipulate Whitechapel for his own ends, - in a way this makes him an even more terrifying character, certainly not a rambling 'mad jew' or bumbling opportunist here, but cool, calculating risk taker who knew his patch, his victims, and his escape routes, he must have felt untouchable!

Chris

[DVV]

Very interesting theory, Pontius,
now you have to explain the GSG / piece of apron accordingly.

Amitiés,
David

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Pontius, just read your post about your theory on Strides murder and strangely enough I came to the same conclusion about a week ago after watching some video posts on the net.

It appears to me that if the suspect seen pushing her to the ground at 12.45 outside the gates IS him, AND that he deliberatly shouts out 'Lipski' then he is actually attracting attention to himself and the area. He would probably have known the body would be discovered pretty soon as the club was busy with people coming and going all the time.

I do believe Stride is a victim of the Ripper and she was murdered precisly to divert police and public attention, this to give him more time to devote to his grisly work on the next victim. If this is so then it shows him as you say, to be a premeditated and organised killer, someone who can manipulate Whitechapel for his own ends, - in a way this makes him an even more terrifying character, certainly not a rambling 'mad jew' or bumbling opportunist here, but cool, calculating risk taker who knew his patch, his victims, and his escape routes, he must have felt untouchable!

Chris

Why would this give him more time? There were two bobbies on the beat around Mitre Square....regardless of whether or not an earlier murder should take place.

I think he was calm enough to get the women into the position he wanted....mind you it wouldn't have been so difficult given the women's habits....but ultimately I see this killer as an opportunist rather than planning kills to shock others or create a diversion.

Someone like Pipe Man isn't that bad a bet in terms of behaviour. Wandering the streets.....saw a woman who may have appeared to have been soliciting.....stepped into the shadows/doorway.....lit a pipe and spent a bit of time smoking while waiting to see what happens with the other man and what sort of opportunity would present itself.....seems simple really and no great mystery.

I'd go for a middle ground....i.e. savvy enough to avoid a scene in the streets but very much an opportunist.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;111070]Pontius,

You might be close to the truth. I think it's quite possible that the Ripper, wanting to live up to his new reputation, went out that evening with the intention of killing two women. To achieve this, he must obviously not have any blood on his person following the first murder. Stride's killer would not have had any blood on him. If this is the case, it would also make sense for the man to travel into City territory to kill Kate, and then confuse matters even more by leaving her apron in Met territory!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott[/QUOT

Tom
You know that thinking is bad for you it makes you keep posting these wild speculative theories

[Adam Went]

IMO, Fleetwood Mac is right on the money. The murder of Liz Stride smacks of opportunistic rather than planned. In the cases of Chapman, Eddowes AND Kelly, we have witnesses stating they saw the victim talking to a man minutes before they were killed - we even have this in the case of Stride to a point. But when Israel Schwartz saw her, she was by herself, and approached by a drunken man who got violent with her in the middle of public view, the exact opposite to how Jack approached his victims. This is why Pipeman is such a good suspect, because he's the one standing there watching all of this, and could well have sensed the opportunity to approach a shaken woman just after she had been attacked, and then led her into the passageway.....

I do believe that Liz was a victim of JTR (not least because it makes much more sense than saying that there was 2 killers in the same area at the same time killing in the same way), but there is only a limit to what he could plan, because he couldn't be sure whether there would be a suitable opportunity at a certain location at a certain time.....

Not to mention that had the murder been planned, he would have chosen a much more discreet place than the passageway next to an active club. Still, an interesting suggestion....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jon Guy]

So instead of being "interrupted" in the Stride killing, maybe it instead went EXACTLY as he planned it....as a diversion.

Hello all

A planned, diversion murder does not really stand up as a possibility when we consider that whomever killed Stride on Met territory then killed Eddowes on City police territory ? The City police were not going to leave their posts and go running down to Berner St. In fact, once the news reached the City policemen on their beats it would only have made them more vigilante in their duties.

Coppers like P.C. Smith were quietly walking their beats until the word went up, and then the whole of Whitechapel was crawling with blue bottles.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd imagine that JTR would have spent a bit of time suverying the scene....how many people were around.....was there a dark place nearby...possibly even considering how he'd get away assuming he knew the streets. Based on the very fact that he needed somewhere dark and quiet....and assuming that he wasn't overly keen on the noose.....it seems to me that his major considerations would have been a place with reduced risk of capture and an escape route......being seen beforehand would have been down the list of his considerations as that simply wouldn't have been enough to get a conviction. Could fit Pipe Man in the doorway smoking a pipe weighing up the options. Could Pipe Man have been in the doorway before BS man arrived? I can't remember Schwartz's testimony so not sure on whether or not Pipe Man was seen turning a corner....or was simply seen in the doorway. Pipe Man could have been sizing up Stride before BS Man came on the scene.

And smoking a pipe could have helped to put the victims at ease......considering that in our minds we associate smoking with relaxing and resting.

I suppose it all rests in large part on whether or not we believe Schwartz was there.

a) The idea that Schwartz invented Pipe Man to ward of accusations of cowardice? were this a consideration the best bet would have been to not have come forward at all.

b) Schwartz wasn't actually there? Possibly....could have been a fantasist....

c) Schwartz did see BS Man and Stride......but invented Pipe Man in order to crow bar 'Lipski' into the scene in an attempt to divert attention from a Jewish suspect. Without any good reason beyond being Jewish.....it seems unlikely to me.

I read somewhere on this board that Pipe Man was identified by someone else but can't find the details? Any knowledge on this..Adam?

Just to add a thought.....at the outbreak of WW1 the minimum height for enlisting soldiers was 5'3.....it was raised to 5'6 after a couple of months as more people enlisted than was expected.....the army reverted to 5'3 when conscription was introduced. So the average height 1914-1918 was somewhere around 5'3-5'6. 20 years earlier I'd take an inch off and say the average height would have been around 5'4. If we say the average height today is 5'9.....then in today's terms.....in terms of height differentials between people.....Pipe Man would have been 6'4ish in today's terms (where we accept Schwarz's statement). Now I'm weighing this up and thinking could I mistake the height of such a tall man by a few inches?

But......here's the thing for me.....if Schwarz was 5'11 then I feel his estimate would have been decent enough.......as he had the evidence and experience of his body that he'd been carrying around for years to use as a benchmark. If Schwarz was 5'3 however.....then I feel there is more of a chance that he could have had his estimations out.....on the basis that 5'7 and 5'11 would both have seemed tall and I'm not so sure someone 5'3 could reliably spot the difference between 5'9 and 5'11 say.

Is there anyone particularly short on the board who could weigh in here.

I'm 5'9 and I would struggle to tell the difference between 6'2 and 6'4.....to me they're both tall....and I'd bet my house that my estimation would be out. I mean.....what would I use as a benchmark? All I know is.....they're tall....and it's not like Schwartz was stood right up next to them and produced a tape measure.

[Jon Guy]

And smoking a pipe could have helped to put the victims at ease......considering that in our minds we associate smoking with relaxing and resting.

Hi FM

An interesting suggestion when we consider that the Police found a pipe filled with baccy underneath the body of Alice McKenzie.

[Mycroft]

In my theory, JtR isn't so organized and cunning, he is an opportunist. I believe that he had four or five regular routes that he would walk at night compulsivley, out of habit, locked in mental turmoil, that prevented him sleeping.Whilst on these forced marches he would observe the behaviour of the prostitutes and his disgust and hatred of them would increase. I imagine that he did these walks every night and just occassionally, when his loathing was on a high and the opportunity arose, he killed. I imagine that he had many failed attempts, where just at the last moment ,something happened that put him off. I believe Liz Stride was a JtR victim, but was not killed as a diversion. I think that he accidentally ran into the "Lipski" scene and observed it from a distance. When the coast was clear, he then moved in on her. I agree with the "normal" answer, that the only reason she wasn't mutilated more, is that he was disturbed or felt threatened and worried about being spotted or possibly, that while he was doing his "work", he suddenly just for a moment snapped out of his killer mode and had to leave.Just my thoughts anyway.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM

An interesting suggestion when we consider that the Police found a pipe filled with baccy underneath the body of Alice McKenzie.

But then someone would have to explain how JTR wasn't seen smoking a pipe with one of the victims? Could be that we assume he had to sweet talk her into the corner.....when of course it could have been as rapid as....."ello luv....business? go on then....down here? aye"....what's that 1/2 minutes to emerge from a doorway and get into the dark spot.

[Jon Guy]

JTR didn`t need to be seen smoking a pipe, he would merely only have to offer them a light or some baccy.

In the case of McKenzie, she didn`t have any matches on her so I am assuming that she approached her killer for a light, or was offered baccy and a light by her killer.

In the case of Stride, Pipeman was said to have followed Schwartz, taking himself out of the equation.

[curious4]

Stride murder

I was very interested in your theory (that Stride was a diversion) and am also of the opinion that the murders were planned. The fact that Catherine Eddowes was so keen to know the time when she left prison and walked in another direction than you would expect points to the fact that she had planned to meet someone (I think). Also think she may have tried to boost her confidence with drink beforehand.

No evidence, of course, but the murderer does seem to be extremely arrogant and unafraid.