Time of Death Analyzation

[JTRSickert]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to point out a certain fact that may or may not put more weight to regard Stide as not being a victim of the Ripper. It is this: Her time of death is very much earlier than the rest of the victims. To better explain, let us do a comparison of the other canonical five victims:

Polly Nichols: body discovered at 3:40am, probably killed shortly before since body was still warm in certain parts

Annie Chapman: seen going into back yard with gentleman at around 5:30am, body discovered 10 minutes to 6am

Catherine Eddowes-possibly seen by Lawende and 2 others with suspect at around 1:30am, body discovered about 15 minutes later

Mary kelly-assuming George Hutchinson is telling the truth about his testimony, Kelly goes into Miller's Court with alleged killer at around 2am in the morning.

So, it seems to me at least, that Stride's killing occured much earlier than the other victims. This, taken into account with the lack of mutilations and that her murder location is south of Commmercial Road (not to mention the lots of witnesses in this case, as opposed to the other Ripper murders) seems to lead towards Stride being more a victim of a domestic attack than a serial murder.

Jack's primary killing hours are estimated as being around 2am-6am in the morning. I think this is a very important consideration to take into account concerning the Stride murder.

[lynn cates]

Kronos

Hello JTR. Your observation regarding times is commonly accepted, but consider:

Polly Nichols: body discovered at 3:40am, probably killed shortly before since body was still warm in certain parts

I think this one's firm.

Annie Chapman: seen going into back yard with gentleman at around 5:30am, body discovered 10 minutes to 6am

Was it Annie Chapman? Phillips said 4:00 AM. Long may have seen another couple. (Don't get me started on Richardson and Cadosch!)

Catherine Eddowes-possibly seen by Lawende and 2 others with suspect at around 1:30am, body discovered about 15 minutes later

I tend to agree, but I have seen some dissent here. Lawende et al may have seen another woman. Indeed, there is a ripperologist or two who think/s Kate's murder took place BEFORE the Lawende sighting.

Mary kelly-assuming George Hutchinson is telling the truth about his testimony, Kelly goes into Miller's Court with alleged killer at around 2am in the morning.

Hutchinson telling the truth? Interesting assumption.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Why would Jack have to stick to some sort of schedule?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

circadian rhythm

Hello CD. Well, sometimes our "urges" follow a circadian rhythm. That would tend to make some times more likely than others.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Well, sometimes our "urges" follow a circadian rhythm. That would tend to make some times more likely than others.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Well that would mean that sometimes they don't. I would be much more inclined to give weight to a change in time if every single time was almost the same as if following some sort of ritual. I think that the fact that all the murders were on weekends is much more significant.

There are just too many reasons that could account for a change in time. I think this is a non-starter.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

predator/prey

Hello CD. I agree, of course. I, like you, consider days of the week (and holidays) much more important.

I never intended this to be a "starter": I merely remarked on a hypothesis that one could forward.

My pet theory regarding time is that "Jack" began to prowl at a certain time, and however long it took for predator to find prey is how long it took.

The best.
LC

[sdreid]

We can never be for sure what might have significance but you eliminate Stride and you have someone else who's the earliest and who else is farthest out of the area if Nichols wasn't already.

[c.d.]

An excellent point, Stan.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Although I think its good to look at the data like this to see differentiators among the murders, "non" and "Can"....the same type of argument could be made regarding how late in the day Annie's murder was...almost dawn. And I personally believe Annie is the quintessential Ripper victim..because it was deemed a successful venture for the killer by the coroner and the attending physician, and it so closely matches the overall attack methodology and postmortem strategy of the Nichols murder.

I do favour more broad parameters though.....East End, after midnight, before 6am, on days that are Holidays, weekends or attached to weekends.

Liz does fit on that broader basis.

What the timing on this kill might reveal though is the probability that Liz's killer was interrupted. Since there is no evidence on Liz herself that would indicate that, its only based on the timing that the argument can survive.

Was there time after the throat cut and before Diemshutz pulls in for example to have at least rolled her onto her back...like all the others were? How soon before Diemshutz pulls in could the killer hear an approaching cart?

Heres a logistical one, as an aside.......Eagle says when he entered the yard via the gates at 12:40, he saw no-one outside the gates nor anyone in the yard....(even though Lave says he was there too at that time)....and he said that the body "could have been there and he missed seeing it". For that to be at all a truthful statement, that places Liz somewhat behind the cover of the right hand gate that swung back into the yard....in that position he would have had to turn towards the wall while passing the spot to see for certain if anything was there. His comments suggest he didnt.

So how is it that Diemshutz's horse shies to the left as if startled.... based on a woman lying slightly behind the door and not actually in front or at the side of the horse or cart? It seems to me as the horse entered the yard only a scent of blood or something would even alert it to the fact that anything was behind the gate....I cant see the body itself being directly in its way.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

[quote-JTRSickert] So, it seems to me at least, that Stride's killing occured much earlier than the other victims. This, taken into account with the lack of mutilations and that her murder location is south of Commmercial Road (not to mention the lots of witnesses in this case, as opposed to the other Ripper murders) seems to lead towards Stride being more a victim of a domestic attack than a serial murder.[/quote]

Quite the opposite, actually. Catherine Eddowes was murdered much earlier than Nichols, Chapman and Kelly. So, how likely is it that on the ONE NIGHT the Ripper went out earlier, a copycat or domestic just happened to strike within the same hour? Not very. It's asking enough of coincidence that the only other Ripper-like murder of 1888 occurred on the night of a legitimate one, but it's too much to ask that it occurred within the same hour as the ONE MURDER the Ripper committed earlier than any other. Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

[quote-JTRSickert]

So, how likely is it that on the ONE NIGHT the Ripper went out earlier, a copycat or domestic just happened to strike within the same hour? Not very. It's asking enough of coincidence that the only other Ripper-like murder of 1888 occurred on the night of a legitimate one, but it's too much to ask that it occurred within the same hour as the ONE MURDER the Ripper committed earlier than any other. Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Are you truly serious? Copycat? Ripper-like murder? Liz Stride is the antithesis of a Ripper murder not the exemplar,....how can you even write "Ripper-like" concerning Liz Strides murder? She had her throat cut once severing one artery, possibly "while falling". Thats it. Ripper-like? Hardly.

It seems youve decided that all throat cuts in the Fall of 88 were Jacks doing.....well,....Mr Brown should have used that in his defense when he appeared for cutting his wifes throat with a knife on the very same night as Liz and Kate were killed. In the same neck of the woods.

There were killers or potential killers all over that area...including a post mortem mutilator, time to stop trying to make it sound like when women were killed Jack was the culprit Tom.

I could care if they were the precise walking time between venues apart, 2 murders in the East End in one night is not cause for "silly hysterics" or irrational thought...nor is 3 throat cuts in one night.

Cheers Tom

[Sam Flynn]

It seems to me as the horse entered the yard only a scent of blood or something would even alert it to the fact that anything was behind the gate...

Stride's body wasn't occluded by the gate, as far as I can recall.

[perrymason]

Stride's body wasn't occluded by the gate, as far as I can recall.

Then perhaps you might be able to explain why Eagle suggested that she might have been lying there and he just didnt notice her Sam? Both gates were open, both swung inward, one swung inward toward the wall, perhaps slightly blocking the body behind it.

We have no idea exactly where she was, all we know is what Club members said. And there wasnt a great deal of room between the wall and the cottages....10-12 feet as I recall reading.

How could he have missed her if she was lying there...he should have stepped on or near her if she wasnt slightly out of view.

Cheers G

[Tom_Wescott]

Stride's body wasn't behind the gate, Michael. This Brown fellow killed his wife in a frenzy with a knife at home. Stride was silently killed in a strange yard with a SINGLE stroke of a knife. No frenzy, no passion, no loud fight. It bears none of the hallmarks of a domestic murder. So where does that leave us? With the one guy who we know was in that area at that time, carrying a sharp knife and looking for prostitutes to kill. I'm speaking of course of Robert Mann.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Stride's body wasn't behind the gate, Michael. This Brown fellow killed his wife in a frenzy with a knife at home. Stride was silently killed in a strange yard with a SINGLE stroke of a knife. No frenzy, no passion, no loud fight. It bears none of the hallmarks of a domestic murder. So where does that leave us? With the one guy who we know was in that area at that time, carrying a sharp knife and looking for prostitutes to kill. I'm speaking of course of Robert Mann.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Huh? I know of several men in that area that carried knives and had violent or troubled histories...I know of convicted killers, from earlier or later acts, in that area at that time. How does Mann go to the head of the list?

And as for the gates, Eagles statements.....try and validate his claim that "she might have been lying there" when he walks by..... with him having a clear view to the body. I dont trust one account of the physical data by club members anyway.

And youve made a terrific non-Canon argument anyway....she is killed by one stroke, she falls on her side and she dies. There is no indication PM mutilation was intended or was a factor at all for this killer...and no indication that a killer who cuts all his victims throats with 2 deep cuts, was there in the yard.

Best regards TW