Two

[Aristocles]

Perhaps I someone would clear something up for me?

I was curious as to Stride's injuries:

If what Schwartz states is in fact correct, viz., she was slammed to the ground ("threw her down on the footway"), how can it be that there is no mention of bruising? In fact it seems that there is almost an implicit notion that there were few marks and that they were detailed. . . ? It seems to me that a man slamming or throwing a woman to the ground would leave marks.

The knife:

I have run across a few places that mention a rounded or even a dull knife. What is the genesis of this? I cannot get my mind around it based on the exegesis of Blackwell and Phillips.

I really question Schwartz. . . I have also come to the tenet that Stride is indeed a victim of a single killer who was shortly afterward carved up K. Eddowes. Odd, but I feel no compulsion to back up those opinions discursively

The more I read about this case the more doxastic I become. Such a paucity of facts. . .

[Roy Corduroy]

...how can it be that there is no mention of bruising?

Hi Aristocles, there was mention of it. Dr. Phillips at inquest: "Over both shoulders, especially the right, from the front aspect under collar bones and in front of chest there is a bluish discolouration which I have watched and seen on two occasions since."

Roy

[Aristocles]

I, of course, am well aware of that but I assumed it references the front of the body as it mentions under the clavicles. Perhaps I misunderstand? I thought that he was clearly speaking of the anterior.

Did Schwartz mean that she was slammed face first onto the ground? If so, then that brings up other interrogatories. . .

Salud!

[perrymason]

Hi Ari,

If you view Schwartz as a valid source, I think in one of the more probable accounts of what transpired between Broadshouldered Man and Liz you have what seems to be a man sliding up behind or beside a woman waiting on the sidewalk near the outside of the gates to Dutfields Yard, the man taking hold of her and attempting to have him follow him out into the street to cross the road, and she rejected that idea....resisting or pulling back against his grip,..... and likely as result of one or the other letting go, she falls with an exclamation. Schwartz looks back and sees he is helping her up. Thats not assault...thats an accidental fall.

A knife, long and with a rounded tip was found that night, and what you are recalling is probably that the medical experts dismissed this type of blade as the one that was likely used on Liz. I wonder though whether in their own minds they were looking for one suitable knife for both murders that night, since they "connected" them by the killer,... because the only issue I see with a round tip for both murders are Kate's mutilations. I personally dont see why a rounded one wouldnt work with Liz only. A utility knife, a bread knife....something one might find in a kitchen...one of which was a few feet away from where she is found.

All the best

[Aristocles]

Hi Ari,

If you view Schwartz as a valid source, I think in one of the more probable accounts of what transpired between Broadshouldered Man and Liz you have what seems to be a man sliding up behind or beside a woman waiting on the sidewalk near the outside of the gates to Dutfields Yard, the man taking hold of her and attempting to have him follow him out into the street to cross the road, and she rejected that idea....resisting or pulling back against his grip,..... and likely as result of one or the other letting go, she falls with an exclamation. Schwartz looks back and sees he is helping her up. Thats not assault...thats an accidental fall.

A knife, long and with a rounded tip was found that night, and what you are recalling is probably that the medical experts dismissed this type of blade as the one that was likely used on Liz. I wonder though whether in their own minds they were looking for one suitable knife for both murders that night, since they "connected" them by the killer,... because the only issue I see with a round tip for both murders are Kate's mutilations. I personally dont see why a rounded one wouldnt work with Liz only. A utility knife, a bread knife....something one might find in a kitchen...one of which was a few feet away from where she is found.

All the best

Hello pm:

Agreed as to his approach but Swanson's paraphrase/synthesis of Schwartz's evidence is that he THREW her down on the footway, three screams, etc. What you describe is something markedly different in reality. Is there a better source- in which Schwartz tells his story as you have stated? Nevertheless, where is the bruising? A woman slips or falls onto a hard surface and is left unmarked? A dubious contention, although possible I suppose.

As for the knife, I was basing the dull notion from a "Rippercast". Perhaps no one else actually credits the dull knife theory- jeez, I feel as if I'm typing about Wounded Knee . . .sorry.

Again, I am well aware of the knife found on a doorstep in Whitechapel Road.

I would not impute any notions to the medical men to back a theory. If they expressed it as their belief that it was not a dull knife, I find no reason to assert that they were making the evidence fit their preconceived theories, on the contrary, it appears to me to be what a 'dull knife' theorist is doing, to wit: lawyering evidence to fit their theory.

Salud!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ari,

I'm sorry to hear the Rippercast is your source for the mistaken old cannard that Stride was killed with a dull knife. As PM pointed out, there's no truth to it. This is a rather old and oft repeated error, and many of the podcast speakers are novices to the case, including some of the authors that speak on there, so no doubt one of these newbies picked this myth up and is passing it on. Kind of a pet peeve of mine.
And yes, you're right. There should be scuff marks on Stride's palms if Schwartz's man did indeed throw her down. IF she were hold the cachous at that time (which I very seriously doubt), we would expect to see bloody knuckles and broken pieces of cachous. But we don't.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Surely the person who made this mistake was Andrew Cook and NOT one of the regular 'guest' podcasters?

Pirate

[Tom_Wescott]

Perhaps, I personally couldn't say. But that's why I mentioned some of the authors these days don't know their stuff. I personally feel that blatant factual errors such as this should be edited from the interview or there should be a spoken 'sidebard' by the interviewer before or after the interview correcting these errors. It should be no different from a book or journal article.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Aristocles]

Thanks Tom. Check your pm's.

I enjoy much and am grateful for the "Rippercasts".

Here is the one to which I refer:

Reign of Terror: The Double Event

Jay Gibson

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jay. I should probably listen to it sometime. I'm sure the double event one was a hoot. What did they decide; that Stride, the graffito, and everything else was a coincidence? The same groundbreaking stuff I see on these boards?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I got your PM. So Cook wasn't the culprit. My original statement stands.

[Jeff Leahy]

Then your accusation is clearly laid at:

Paul Begg, Gareth Williams, Jonathon Menges or the other one….

As, as far as I’m aware, Paul is the only author in this program, so we’ll just put it down to another half baked, ill considered, crack pot…..

TOM WESCOTT theory shall we?

However, we (and as far as I know, Paul Begg) are in agreement that there is NO proof Stride was killed by a different knife.

Pirate

[Archaic]

Rippercast

I quite enjoy the Rippercasts. I think the participants do a good job and that they create interesting & informative shows. In fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank them for their efforts.
I also appreciate the diverse views which are presented, because I happen to enjoy hearing opinions and theories which differ from my own.

And I honestly see no reason to expect the Rippercast participants to live up to some imagined "Doctrine of Infallibility"... that's just silly. They're human beings and they are discussing a complex historical subject whose "facts" have been re-written before & will probably be re-written again.

Frankly, I feel the onus is upon those who wish to find fault with the show to produce something better.
It should be easy, right?

Best regards, Archaic

[Jon Guy]

However, we (and as far as I know, Paul Begg) are in agreement that there is NO proof Stride was killed by a different knife.

Dr Phillips did say at the inquest that he didn`t think a long knife was used on Stride.

The blade used on Eddowes was said to be about 6-8 inches, which is long.

[Jeff Leahy]

Well said, Archaic.

I’ve just had a quick flick through the episode and can see NO glaring errors.

The Wizard of OZ seems in fine fetter, Totto’s smooth welsh melody is as sexy as ever, and even the wicked witch of the west seems coherent and making sense.

Hi John, I’m not convinced 6” can be described as long? But I’ll check with my partner.

However there is NO proof that Stride was killed with a different knife from Eddow’s. It is a myth that has been well told in recent times.

Pirate

[Jon Guy]

Hi John, I’m not convinced 6” can be described as long? But I’ll check with my partner.

See what her answer is, Jeff, and then add on another 5 or 6 inches to allow for the handle

However there is NO proof that Stride was killed with a different knife from Eddow’s. It is a myth that has been well told in recent times.

I don`t know about Ripper myths, Jeff, personally, I just use the Inquest reports, and Dr Phillips comments do seem to be have been overlooked, or misunderstood (perhaps by me?)