Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Christine]

Wouldn't the police have shown Kidney to Schwartz at least? This seems like a no-brainer, honestly. Or am I missing something? I have always just assumed that the obvious suspects like Kidney and Barnett could not have been seen by witnesses, unless the witness didn't get much of a good look at all.

Michael, I don't really have that much respect for the police, but I really can't believe that there were no attempts to determine whether Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man, or to determine whether any of the witnesses saw Kidney. If the police did anything at all they must have done that, and all accounts indicate that they were at least trying to find the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

Celesta writes:

"He knew that the man was drunk because he was walking behind him"

If we can believe the Star, that is - in the police report, nothing is said about drunkenness...

The best,
Fisherman

[Celesta]

Yes, I thought it was also a matter of scale and perspective for the sketch, Fisherman. We don't really know how big a man Kidney is, but he does seem a bit thick-necked. That's just opinion, course.

It could be that things happened so fast for Israel that he got no more than impressions. If he was telling the truth, he did better than I would have done at observing. He knew that the man was drunk because he was walking behind him, which is likely when he noticed the guy was broad-shouldered. Then not only the attack occurred but the Lipski episode that put both him and Pipe dude in fear for their own safety. It happened fairly quickly, I imagine.

[Fisherman]

Celesta writes:

"The picture I've seen of Kidney doesn't make him look broad-shouldered. I'm referring to the sketch of him. It's one of my first questions when I think of Kidney possibly being the killer."

..and that is the very same sketch Tom uses too, the reason being that we have no other pics of him.
That drawing pictures Kidney from the side to begin with, leaving us totally unable to establish the width of his shoulders. It is, however, a pic drawn by a gifted artist, known for his accuracy, and we can see that Kidney had sloping shoulders. That, though, does not mean that they were not broad. My father, dead since more than thirty years, had sloping shoulders - but they were round and broad at the same time, and he could move a car onto a sidewalk using only muscular strength.
Moreover, we are still dealing with the same scared Israel Schwartz when discussing BS man, and the same floating seconds and the same dark streets. To begin with, a scared man seeing some sort of violence inflicted would reasonably be prone to exaggerating the danger - and - perhaps - also the measures of the man inflicting the violence. Moreover, if the sleeves of the jacket were padded over the shoulders, we may get another picture. Maybe BS man wore a thick sweater underneath the jacket, increasing his size.

The options are many, and I think we cannot use the drawing of Kidney to establish how muscular and broad he was. We do know that he was a dockside labourer, though, and we do know that such an occupation is a very heavy one, and quite likely to develop muscles on those who served on the quays and docks.

"I just had the sense that there was some familiarity betw. victim and attacker."

That is a feeling I can relate to, Celesta - I think exactly the same.

The best,
Fisherman

[Celesta]

The picture I've seen of Kidney doesn't make him look broad-shouldered. I'm referring to the sketch of him. It's one of my first questions when I think of Kidney possibly being the killer.

C.D., That's a good report about the truckers and it certainly fits with the notion of the killer moving on to a second victim because he didn't get his fix with the first one.

It's true about solicitation occurring a lot with intoxication. I just had the sense that there was some familiarity betw. victim and attacker. It could be that Liz encountered BS man earlier and pis*ed him off.

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Not only did BS Man not look like Kidney, but Kidney produced an alibi that the police were able to confirm."

Now, where have I come across that before ...? Ah, NOW I remember - it was Tom W that time too, on an earlier thread.

At that time I asked him for the contemporary photos of BS man and Kidney that he would need to assert that they did not look like each other. I also, if I don´t misremember, asked him for the specific police report on the Kidney interrogation that concluded that he had a watertight alibi.

For some reason, he produced neither...? It all boiled down to an assertion that the moustache worn by Kidney could not have been described the way it was by Schwartz, a terrified man in a dark street with very little time to take in what he saw. Some proof! And in Kidneys case, there was no specific details at all. All that existed was a report that stated that Strides "near aquaintances" had been investigated, with nothing coming from it.
If that referred to Kidney, amongst others? Probably. But what he had said, and what the police had thought about it was left in complete darkness, and we all know that history provides the odd false alibi or two.

It was so demoralizing an experience that I actually decided not to believe Tom on any of these points.

Stride remains an open question - no, shall we say, overenthusiastic interpretation of the meagre evidence that remains can change that. Kidney remains a viable candidate, although I myself am more inclined to believe that the man who killed Stride may well have been Kidneys successor.

And if I am right, that still would not enable me to pinpoint the look and size of his moustache...!

Fisherman

The police believed that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man. They had the opportunity to cross-question the witnesses, to ask Schwartz and Lawende about details, to look for clues as to whether approximately 12:45 meant nearly one, or well before one. I'm inclined to think they knew what they were talking about.

Thats very respectful Christine, however lest we not forget that there is no "bread crumb trail" between sites, nor is there anything about Liz Strides simple murder that appears Jack-Like. Fisherman summarized some points rather well. And if Schwartz is so believable, then how come the only Inquest statement concerning 12:45am comes from James Brown, who saw a different encounter than Israels in a different location.

Jon made an interesting observation and one that may be the real story...if what Israel saw occurred in the yard, and he left immediately after the man shouted at him..... BSM could have killed Liz right at that moment. But she has cashous....not the average pepper spray substitute for LVP women. I believe she must have sensed no danger to be holding breath fresheners when she is grabbed and cut. And if she is alone with a man that accosted her in some manner, that is not a likely spot to let down her guard.

The real issue is uncovering why she would have had her guard down, if Schwartz was on the level. And I dont see the altercation lessening any concerns she may have had on the street alone.

Best regards all.

[Tom_Wescott]

Dutfields is totally the wrong location to mutilate somebody, it's only really safe for a quick killing...which is what the Stride murder looks like.

I agree. Same with Hanbury Street where you had 17 people waking up, with windows overlooking the murder site, and Jack blocking the way to the only privvy. Also the same with Buck's Row, a well-traveled residential street. Either none of these women were actually murdered, or they were murdered, and by someone willing to take very particular risks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

For what it is worth -- There was a segment on the news the other night dealing with long distance truck drivers who are serial killers. Very disturbing. Anyway, one of the truck drivers attempted to enter a home where a woman resided but was scared off by her sceaming and calling the police. He attempted another murder a short distance away and a little while later that same evening. It seems reasonable to me that if someone is overcome by a desire to murder, or mutilate in Jack's case, that if he is unable to bring the act to fruition that he will attempt it again in a short while in order to obtain satisfaction.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

Dutfields is totally the wrong location to mutilate somebody, it's only really safe for a quick killing...which is what the Stride murder looks like.

i'd say it's about 30% JTR

[Tom_Wescott]

It's tempting for me to say it was Kidney because of the way it went down, according to Schwartz. First of all the perpetrator was pretty drunk, and that's when a lot of domestic violence occurs.

That's also when a lot of solicitation occurs, hence prostitutes hanging out in or outside of pubs. Not only did BS Man not look like Kidney, but Kidney produced an alibi that the police were able to confirm. He was also quite happy to appear publicly at the inquest, knowing full well that various men (which could have been him!) were witnessed that night, and that these witnesses could very well be there in the room with him.

Considering that the ONLY reason to believe Kidney killed Stride is that they wre a couple, this opposing evidence should more than give anyone doubt about Kidneys guilt. There's really no reason to view him as a viable murder suspect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Celesta]

Yet as early as October 2, 1888, The Times wrote:

"...for the belief is now generally entertained in official quarters that no one person alone is attributable the series of crimes which in the last few weeks have horrified and alarmed the public." see the JTR Companion on p. 216.

Also, the Philadelphia Times of Dec. 3, 1888: "Two Murderers" "The city detectives then early in the first week of October came to a definite conclusion, namely, that the two women met their death at the hands of different men. It was but taking a single step to further conclude that these two men were acting in collusion." (also taken from the JTR Companion on p. 466.)

These were some of the things being said at the time.

[Christine]

The police believed that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man. They had the opportunity to cross-question the witnesses, to ask Schwartz and Lawende about details, to look for clues as to whether approximately 12:45 meant nearly one, or well before one. I'm inclined to think they knew what they were talking about.

[Celesta]

Hey Brad,

It's tempting for me to say it was Kidney because of the way it went down, according to Schwartz. First of all the perpetrator was pretty drunk, and that's when a lot of domestic violence occurs. Who knows, he could've been looking for her for hours, drinking at every watering hole. Second, the way the perpetrator approached her makes it seem as though he expected to find her there. There's not much preamble. He speaks to her then tries to hauls her out of the gateway right away. When he pushed her to pavement, why didn't she just yell her head off, instead of screaming "but not very loudly?" It's like she knew the guy. She knew Kidney was capable of doing violence to her but maybe not killing her. If Kidney killed her, maybe his drunken state made him careless of the witnesses.

I'm not saying he's the Ripper or even that he did kill her but that it's just a possibility.

[Fisherman]

I am aware of your work on the setting in Dutfields yard, Jon, and much interested by it.
My contribution to this thread, however, was mainly aimed at those who tend to attribute Jacks thinking to the man who killed Stride. Firstly, we cannot know - only guess - how Jack functioned, and secondly, there is every reason to believe that Strides killer and Jack were not one and the same, and that brings us out of the "We-would-be-dealing-with-a-very cautious-killer-territory".

The best, Jon!
Fisherman