Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi AP,

No clue at all what you're trying to say there. Not in the slightest. But we can make any of the murders domestic if we want to since they're all about the same. According to Andrew Cook, I guess they're all domestic!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

What I always found quite amusing is a little game I used to play with pen and paper when waiting for a delayed flight.
I'd give strokes of the pen - a biro you will note - on the paper for witness statements, and other incidents directly associated with each Whitechapel Murder, and I'd always get something like this:

Emma Smith. //
Martha Tabram. ////
Mary Nichols. //
Annie Chapman. //
Elisabeth Stride. //////////////
Catherine Eddowes. /
Mary Kelly. /

That's not exact, at all, but I think you'll get my drift, that the murder of Stride stands out so much from the rest that it must be an isolated incident unrelated to the rest, and has more in keeping with a domestic incident rather that the antics of a rogue killer preying on women in areas of Whitechapel where he would not be witnessed.

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"To all others, I recommend a thorough read through of your posts, then a thorough read through of mine to help them make sense of the nonsense they just read."

Anybody out here is welcome to make any sort of comparison and come up with a decision of their own, Tom. The thread about Strides bloodied right hand, for example, would give a good picture of how we argue, respectively, and what we use to ground our thinking on.
Admittedly, the more flamboyant and - shall we say - unorthodox thinking is offered by you.
Me, Iīm a sucker for good old fashioned facts. Teeeedious, ainīt it?

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

I only use him since you keep telling me that you consider my posts worthy of no more than a quick skimming.

Only to those of us who've read you tackle the same debate a 100 times. To all others, I recommend a thorough read through of your posts, then a thorough read through of mine to help them make sense of the nonsense they just read.

It is an old tactic, trying to belittle your opponent, and I donīt want the other posters around getting the impression that you are right to do so.

No, it's an old tactic called honesty. I really do skim through a lot of your Kidney posts. Same with Perry Mason, since his are usually a mile long. I read for enjoyment, not headaches.

So, you see, your own assertions that the evidence points away from a domestic affair is refuted by one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Ripperologists - and, of course, by me too.

And by AP too, don't forget. No doubt Stewart is wondering if he shouldn't rethink that conclusion! And incidentally, since you didn't tell me which documentary you're paraphrasing, I can't exactly agree that you're correct.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

I only use him since you keep telling me that you consider my posts worthy of no more than a quick skimming. It is an old tactic, trying to belittle your opponent, and I donīt want the other posters around getting the impression that you are right to do so.
What Stewart did was to say on a documentary that the Stride killing "bears all the hallmarks of a domestic killing" if I remember it correctly. So, you see, your own assertions that the evidence points away from a domestic affair is refuted by one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Ripperologists - and, of course, by me too.
Thought Iīd add that in case you had skimmed it.

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Did Stewart write that it looked like a domestic murder, or did he write that he couldn't be sure it was a Ripper murder? And what does Stewart have to do with our discussion anyway? He's welcome to join in with his own firsthand opinions, but being wiser than myself, he's staying far, far away from these Stride/Fisherman threads.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Did you find me in there?

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Who is Stewart Evans? I'm looking through my first edition A-Z and don't see him anywhere in here, so he can't be too important.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:

"Don't let the fact that the crime scene evidence points AWAY from a domestic homicide get in the way of you agreeing with AP that it's a domestic homicide. And you think skimming posts makes ME look ignorant?"

I do, as a matter of fact. And when it comes to ignorant people who has voiced that the Stride killing looks like a domestic affair, I think we can count a guy like Stewart Evans in. And of course, if you feel that he could be pointed out a a bloke who skims things and forgets to do his homework, thatīs fine by me...

...but I am of the opposite opinion altogether myself.

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

...which is a pretty daft thing to do, since it makes you look totally ignorant. Plus, of course, it is rude - but that would not bother you, I take it...?

I know, I'm a lazy American and a horrible Casebooker.

As for Kidney, what I have been saying all along, and what I remain saying, is that he makes a viable candidate too - and I fully concur with AP that the deed carries quite a resemblance with many a domestic killing.

Don't let the fact that the crime scene evidence points AWAY from a domestic homicide get in the way of you agreeing with AP that it's a domestic homicide. And you think skimming posts makes ME look ignorant?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:


"I don't read you posts, I skim them."

...which is a pretty daft thing to do, since it makes you look totally ignorant. Plus, of course, it is rude - but that would not bother you, I take it...?

"I'm glad to see you're STARTING to listen to reason where Kidney is concerned."

Starting? It is the same stance I have had for as long as I can remember. It is the same stance that I offered in my dissertation on these boards. But of course, you would not know this - you just skim, donīt you?

"pray tell, who was Kidney's successor?"

Do you want name and address or will you settle for the shoesize only?
I think that a compelling case can be made for Marshalls man and BS man being one and the same, and if so, we have a man on stage that sociates with Stride twice on her last evening, once in a very friendly manner, small-talking and strolling with her. To me, he would be a good choice for the role of the successor.

As for Kidney, what I have been saying all along, and what I remain saying, is that he makes a viable candidate too - and I fully concur with AP that the deed carries quite a resemblance with many a domestic killing.

Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Christine
Kidney interviewed the police, they didn't interview him.

Yeah, he's like Kaiser Sousay.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Christine
Kidney interviewed the police, they didn't interview him.

[Christine]

We don't actually know exactly what the police thought, but since they were able to compare victim stories and concluded that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same man, the inference is that they convinced themselves that two or more of the witness descriptions matched. I can't believe that it never occurred to them to suspect Kidney, and we know they questioned Kidney, and they decided Kidney didn't do it.

That they thought Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man seems most likely of the various possibilities to me, but it's far from certain and there are of course other possibilities. The only thing that we know for sure is that they had the opportunity to compare witness statements and cross question them, and that the police concluded that the same man was with both women.

So it seems to me that either there was some sort of extraordinary coincidence of both victims being with the same (innocent) man, or with two innocent men who looked very much alike, and that none of these men ever came forward, or the police were utterly incompetent--that they did a worse job of it than I personally could have done had I been in charge of the investigations.

This is why I believe that Kidney did not kill Stride, and that the Ripper did, despite the discrepancies in the Stride murder, discrepancies which are not really that hard to explain away, and despite it looking very much like a domestic killing. I'm not unwilling to be convinced that the police were complete idiots, but they seem to me to have at least been competent enough to determine with a high degree of certainty whether two witnesses saw the same man.

[Tom_Wescott]

The only fool around would be the guy who missed that I earlier on this thread wrote that I am more inclined to believe in a successor to Kidney than in Kidney himself as Strideīs killer. It was in post 36, and I quote:
"Kidney remains a viable candidate, although I myself am more inclined to believe that the man who killed Stride may well have been Kidneys successor."
That post, by the bye, was addressed to you, Tom, so it is a tad strange that you are willing to display a total unawareness of it a few pages down the road...?

Not strange at all. I don't read you posts, I skim them. At least when they're about Kidney, because you're a broken record. I'm glad to see you're STARTING to listen to reason where Kidney is concerned. I'm glad I could have some influence on you. So, pray tell, who was Kidney's successor?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott