Elizabeth Stride ..who killed her ?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

There's no proof that Kidney was even in Berner Street that night (is there?), or that he was capable of killing. And Stride's is the most dissimiliar kill in the canonical group. But then I'd just be repeating myself.

[celee]

Hi Celestra,

Just now noticed your responce.

Exactly, Kidney in the heat of the moment or Jack. No one else, in my opinion, would have killed Stride after being seen by Shwartz.

Your friend, Brad

[Ben]

It is not stated publicly, as it was with Hutchinson, that he is a discredited witness....but his story does not appear at all in the official review of the police evidence gathered

It does, Mike.

Swanson made a compilation of eyewitness evidence, and it included Schwartz's description.

there is not one tiny piece of evidence that supports linking ANY 2 Canonicals...

You can't be serious.

You can argue that there's no proof, but to argue that "not one tiny piece of evidence" to link any one "canonical" victim with another is obviously outlandish.

I'm afraid there's little justification for that interpretation, Mike.

If the police prioritized one description over the other, it could easily be explained on the grounds that they felt one witness acquired a better sighting than the other, as opposed to a belief that they must have seen two different people. Israel Schwartz may not have been mentioned at the inquest, but his name and description were both mentioned (along with Lawende's) on a police report penned by Donald Swanson.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Ill address both your rebuttal and Roys together.....Joseph Lawende is a named witness that was called to put his story on record at the Inquest. Due to the sensitive nature of his evidence and an ongoing investigation of it, the details were suppressed. Lawende was sequestered in a hotel during their investigation of his account. Macnaughten's Memorandum that Roy misused in defense of his counter point suggests that a single witness saw the real Jack, and although he says he thinks it was a PC who saw him near Mitre Square, we have no evidence that would back that statement up other than a witness to a suspect for the Mitre Square murder, who by his account is seen with Kate less than 10 minutes before she is found dead. Considering the extent of her injuries and the fact that they are not at the location yet where she will die, it would seem reasonable that she did not meet yet another man after Sailor Man. Lawende is aasumed the best witness to the killer, and is assumed to have been brought in at times to ID suspects in custody. He is a likely candidate for their "City PC witness" mentioned by Macnaughten.

That seems fair, yes?

Now, Israel Schwartz gave a story Sunday Sept 30th that places the soon to be Berner Street victim in a tussle just outside the location where she is murdered with a drunk. Critically important if true. That story is repeated in the press, and some notations by Swanson. It is not stated publicly, as it was with Hutchinson, that he is a discredited witness....but his story does not appear at all in the official review of the police evidence gathered, called an Inquest, even though there was ample opportunity to call him in.

They did not.

Ergo, his story was not believed relevant by the Police, and that fact is verified by the fact that James Browns competing 12:45am story IS in the official review. Ergo, the officials cannot have concluded that Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man when one witness was not believable.

I could care less who says Jack killed 5 women including Liz Stride, ....there is not one tiny piece of evidence that supports linking ANY 2 Canonicals...including the 2 placed in that group that happened to die on the same night. That a group of men said they thought so doesnt makes it a fact.

I like debates, I dont like people intentionally dismissing facts because they prefer different answers. Like wanting Jack as the dual killer on Sept 30th.

So we are on the real page.....Lawende was believed, and is on the record at the Inquest, Schwartz was said to have been believed in a memo, but in fact was not asked to recite his statement on record. It wasnt even mentioned, Nor was he, Or a Broadshouldered Man. Or a Pipeman.

In point form;

-Brown is the legitimate 12:45am sighting by virtue of his appearance at the Inquest
-Schwartz's story was not officially accepted, by virtue of the absence of it or him at the Inquest
- There was likely no Broadshouldered Man, Pipeman, or altercation with Liz outside the gates at 12:45am
-Liz was not likely just outside the gates alone at 12:45am.
-Diemshutz so called killer-interruption is that he pulled in and found a woman who had been cut perhaps as much as 10 minutes or more before he even arrives
-Liz Strides killer murdered her and then left her untouched

If anyone wants Liz Strides killer to have been Jack cause that agrees with the unofficial and unproven allegations of a 5 woman killing spree by Jack the Ripper, just know that you do so without any evidence or proof in legal terms that validates those opinions. None.

Best regards all.

[halomanuk]

We have to look at the hysteria factor which would have been escalated once Eddowes had been killed AND mutilated.
It is no different than a spreading hysteria today.
People would have looked back to any other 'profile murder' on the same night and would have found Stride..it's a possibility..

[Cap'n Jack]

And if we piled up rabbit turds for a thousand years we'd get a hill.
Tom, your last post was beyond the pale, or bucket.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

In short, there's no more reason to think him the killer of Stride than to think John Kelly killed Eddowes.

Glad to see someone's got sense regarding the somewhat braindead theory that Stride's (and Mary Kelly's for that matter) murder was the result of a domestic. I never understood why either of their spouses made good candidates for being a murderer; the worst thing any of them did from memory is be rough or absuive to their girlfriends, which was probably a very common thing to happen in those days, as wrong as it is. That and one of Mary's Joes(?) was institutionalised later on, but going by his aslyum notes that someone posted on here a while back he seemed to be harmless. Not exactly the make-up of a regular murderer, let alone serial killer.

That being said (not in reply to anyone in particular), I don't think Stride was a Ripper victim any more than Alice McKenzie(?). Their throat wounds were both superficial and tame in comparison to that of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and even Kelly's. The only striking component linking Stride to the Ripper is that she was killed in Whitechapel on the same night as Eddowes and not much else. If she was a Ripper victim, then Jack did everything strikingly dissimilar with her one-off type of murder for some reason, and I'm talking about the way in which she was actually killed, not the so-called so-trite theory of being interrupted before being able to perform the mutilations; unless Jack was interrupted the moment his blade touched her throat.

[Tom_Wescott]

His size description fits issues of Der Arbeter Fraint to a T. A stack of these with the string around them would resemble a parcel from most angles in that light. And they DID stand outside the club handing the newspaper out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Tom,
I can see your point.Thats certainly another possibility .The newspaper parcel was described by PC Smith as being 18 in.in length and 6 to 8 in. in width.I wonder at how precise PC Smith was being when he said "parcel"? Because parcel implies the newspapers were being used as a " wrap" round something, might not a "newspaper bundle" or "sheaf" of newspapers have better described a collection of papers from Arbeter frient?

Best

[Tom_Wescott]

Fish,

It was in that one documentary I saw.

Nats,

I'm not at all convinced that PC Smith saw Stride's killer, but your points are certainly valid ones. Personally, I think she may have been talking to a clubman carrying a stack of Der Arbeter Fraints.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

You've hit the nail on the head. Stride was not slapped around, yelled at, or manhandled, according to the medical evidence. She was taken to a dark corner where her throat was slit in one motion...no false starts as are almost always seen in knife homicides. Twas a practiced, emotionless hand what fell poor Liz Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Interesting that Diemschutz's wife as well as Morris Eagle testifed that despite the singing in the club they were quite confident that they would have heard Liz scream which they did not. It would stand to reason then that they would have heard any yelling or loud argument preceding her death. Hard to imagine that Kidney would have just walked up and stabbed her without a preceding argument with lots of yelling.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:

"no false starts as are almost always seen in knife homicides"

Fascinating! "Almost always", no less! Any statistics, figures...?

Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

To me the Stride murder makes sense as being one of the Ripper"s.
I tend to rely most on PC Smith"s account of seeing a respectable looking young man talking to a woman with a flower on her jacket at 12.30- 12.35, the man carrying a newspaper parcel.
I think this " respectably dressed" man was probably carrying the "tools"of his trade in this rather large parcel,and on his way home.I dont think he was a butcher dressed like that,in a dark suit and the rather up market "deer stalker" hat, and it leaves me thinking he could have been a "jobbing barber" ie one who worked at several barber shops part time.After the throat slitting ,then the urge to use one of those sharp knives again to mutilate another woman overcame him----but mutilation wasnt exactly an easy option in this relatively busy yard with people toing and froing ,so it makes sense that he had to get to another, quieter, place, nearby---- where he knew he could find another such woman soliciting, quite easily and therefore be able to fully indulge his urges with the knife.

It occurs to me as well that barbers seem to figure more than most in British murders.Sweeny Todd being the most famous.In the film with Johnny Depp ,Burton shows Todd gradually being overcome at the sight of his customers throats offered up for shaving-until overcome with blood lust when shaving one of his unfortunate customers he slits their throats----and then cant stop!

[Tom_Wescott]

You've hit the nail on the head. Stride was not slapped around, yelled at, or manhandled, according to the medical evidence. She was taken to a dark corner where her throat was slit in one motion...no false starts as are almost always seen in knife homicides. Twas a practiced, emotionless hand what fell poor Liz Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

You have to wonder why Kidney would have gone on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz. He could have just slapped her around at let it go at that.

c.d.