The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

You're not getting it. Diemschutz came home, realized (by matchlight) a woman was in the yard. It wasn't until he told everyone in the kitchen and everyone upstairs and they all came down with better light that they got a good look at her and noticed the stream of blood running from her neck, in the gutter, toward their steps. Plenty of time for her to bleed like that from the time the Diemster found her. And yes, dead people can bleed out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

'Dead people don't bleed.'

Quite right, Simon, and I speculated a long time ago that Stride was not in fact dead at the time of her first examination by a medic.

[c.d.]

No one is disparaging any medical authority. I have no doubt that he gave his best estimate (using the knowledge of time of death in 1888).

And again we go back to Diemschutz being the only possible source of interruption. Just ain't so. Somebody coming out to use the privy or get some air. Could be any number of things including good ole paranoia on the part of Jack. Cut your losses (no pun intended) and move on. Liz was not the only woman on the street that night.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Dead people don't bleed.

Regards,

Simon

Since when does a bystander without any medical knowledge or experience come into play on when Liz was cut.....review Spooners testimony, he wasnt even sure when he was in the yard. Using his statement to determine a probable cut time is ridiculous.

You have a single credible senior medical opinion...I suggest you consider it well.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

I think she wanted her hat to fit and not blow off her head in the wind, AP. One doesn't put nasty newspaper in a hat to keep their head dry. They'd end up with a hair full of paste. Fact is, it wasn't just her shoulders that were dry. And a hat can only do so much.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi again all and thanks for highlighting the contentious issues with this "Singular" Event.

There is no need to disparage the man who was the most senior medical authority onsite,...his first line on the cut estimate shows that he believed the wound to be made within 20 minutes of his arrival......and he then extends that period with his second line, at most, 1/2 hour. Clearly demonstrating that in his opinion if he erred on his first time it would be a longer period...not shorter, that had elapsed between the cut and his arrival,... or earlier than his original estimate.

The evidence clearly doesnt support a Diemshutz interruption anyway you slice it....so I would suggest pro-Ripper arguments start looking for something else that might suggest an interruption. Cause the timings and the demeanor of Liz Stride in death for 100% certainty, do not support Jackus Interruptus. And one slice doesnt help that cause either.

Chris brings up an interesting point, who actually owned the yard and was responsible for it? Heres a thought......Wess, This man appears in a few spots in this case, and in a role that defies explanation,....like his being the very first witness statement on record at the Inquest...when by his own account, he had left before Liz is killed or found. He translates for Goldstein, as per TW, and he may have done so for Schwartz for all we know.

Out of all the witnesses, why would Wess be first?

Maybe because he was the name on the property deed? Or the property manager?

Best regards all.

[Cap'n Jack]

No, Tom, I don't 'know that'.
What I do know is that folks wore wide brimmed hats in the LVP to keep the rain off their shoulders; and that it was common practice to stuff newspaper in them to impede the water.
Or do you think she had eyes in the top of her head and liked to catch up on the news in her hat?

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam and Simon,

What exactly is the conundrum? Stride was still bleeding out later when Edward Spooner examined her, etc. Had the Ripper killed her at 1am and was interrupted at that time, she still would have bled out slowly to still be bleeding when Spooner got there approximately six minutes later.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Interesting observation, Simon - I'd never noticed that particular conundrum before. Although it's strictly off-topic in terms of this thread, I'm nonetheless grateful to you for pointing it out.

I hate to display my ignorance so openly but I am still not sure of the point being made. Is it that Jack would have had a great deal of time to perform his mutilations given this time frame?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

To solve the conundrum all you have to do is reconcile three things—

1. Stride was dead at 1.00 am.

2. Stride bled to death comparatively slowly.

3. The Ripper was interrupted at 1.00 am.

Interesting observation, Simon - I'd never noticed that particular conundrum before. Although it's strictly off-topic in terms of this thread, I'm nonetheless grateful to you for pointing it out.

[Tom_Wescott]

Her hat would not have protected her clothes (much less the newspaper) from getting wet, and you know that AP.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Some years ago I dug out all the weather reports for the nights of the murders and bunged them up here, but they probably got lost in the collapse of the site.
I don't keep records of anything, but I seem to remember that there were short sharp showers throughout the night of 30th September 1888.
One reason that Stride may have appeared to have dry clothing over the upper half of her body was that she was wearing a wide brimmed hat that offered protection. The fact that she had stuffed newspaper into that hat would certainly indicate she had in fact stood in the rain for some considerable time.
Quite simple when you think about it. A man is spotted with a newspaper wrap in his hand; Packer probably sold his fruit wrapped in newspaper to save money on paper bags - a common market practice in the LVP - Stride removes grapes from newspaper wrap, stuffs newspaper into hat and they stroll off eating the grapes... in the rain.
Everything fine and dandy, that is until the jilted ex boyfriend turns up.
Not even murder, but manslaughter.

[Tom_Wescott]

Chris,

My understanding is that the clubmen owned the house and all property in the yard, so therefore the yard.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Simon, I've made that argument many a time, have you not been keeping up?

[c.d.]

Sorry, Simon you lost me on that one. I don't know what your point is.

c.d.