The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[caz]

What happened to the notion of JtR being interrupted by Diemschitz?

This poll would suggest that this has historically been the most popular opinion.

Still very much a possibility as far as I'm concerned.

You of all people must recognise the concept of juggling with more than two or three possible scenarios here!

Love,

Caz
X

[Sunny Delight]

also never understood the fascination with Pipeman over BS - waste of time. After 130 odd years there is little to work with so what is wrong with the most logical explanation. Given the time constraints the man who was seen assaulting stride must be the prime suspect. People on here just love tying themselves in knots with theories a lot more complicated than have any sort of mileage. Look at Trevor and his crackers apron BS!

Agreed. It cannot be totally ruled out that someone else possibly Pipeman approaches Stride soon after BS man's assault and then kills her. The most logical explanation however is that BS man was the killer and the Ripper. He is very incautious and most likely a disorganised impulsive type killer. This leads him to taking chances and in Berner Street Israel Schwartz just happens to come across the scene as the attack begins. Stride is most likely dead within those next few minutes. As for the Apron Trevor's theory is utterly bonkers and totally ridiculous. He dismisses the best clue of the whole investigation.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi George /Caz . I think ill have to disagree . Surely B.S man who seen by Schwartz at 12.45am actually assaulting Stride, has to be put forward before all others as her murderer? , Theres just nothing at all that to suggest based on any witness testimony that Pipeman had anything to do with what took place except look on then move on and follow Schwartz a short distance down the road .

I just cant see for the life of me why people would have him as the murderer before B.S.


Also if pipeman was to double back with intent to kill , then its not 12.45 am anymore! . There now precious minutes gone by with a new set of of circumstances , 1, He has to now find Stride where ever she made be [more time to do that] , . 2 Kill her without her making a sound [for the second time in as many minutes , not be seen by any new witnesses that now may have entered the same spots as Schwartz and Pipeman.

Just way to much to ask and expect people to believe if you ask me . when we have a perfect suspect who was witnessed assaulting a women that was dead just minutes later . ....

also never understood the fascination with Pipeman over BS - waste of time. After 130 odd years there is little to work with so what is wrong with the most logical explanation. Given the time constraints the man who was seen assaulting stride must be the prime suspect. People on here just love tying themselves in knots with theories a lot more complicated than have any sort of mileage. Look at Trevor and his crackers apron BS!

[FISHY1118]

Hi Caz,

Thank you for the information on the use of "Ha Ha" in the Victorian era, a fact of which I was completely unaware. I am not convinced the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were authored by JtR. I think that the "From Hell" letter is more likely in that regard.

I am more inclined to agree with your proposal for Pipeman being the culprit, taking the opportunity for a kill which witness testimony would point at someone else, rather than it being that someone else. That would also explain him making a move towards Schwartz to see him off, but not following him. I think Schwartz was too busy running away to know how far Pipeman followed. It would seem a little early for Diemshitz's return but since no-one knows the where-abouts of Parcelman at this time, he may have played a part in an interruption, or just someone leaving the club (the Wess story). Alternatively, if the killer wasn't JtR then mutilations may not have been part of the intention at all.

Cheers, George

Hi George /Caz . I think ill have to disagree . Surely B.S man who seen by Schwartz at 12.45am actually assaulting Stride, has to be put forward before all others as her murderer? , Theres just nothing at all that to suggest based on any witness testimony that Pipeman had anything to do with what took place except look on then move on and follow Schwartz a short distance down the road .

I just cant see for the life of me why people would have him as the murderer before B.S.


Also if pipeman was to double back with intent to kill , then its not 12.45 am anymore! . There now precious minutes gone by with a new set of of circumstances , 1, He has to now find Stride where ever she made be [more time to do that] , . 2 Kill her without her making a sound [for the second time in as many minutes , not be seen by any new witnesses that now may have entered the same spots as Schwartz and Pipeman.

Just way to much to ask and expect people to believe if you ask me . when we have a perfect suspect who was witnessed assaulting a women that was dead just minutes later . ....

[GBinOz]

While I suspect Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky were from the ripper, the use of "Ha ha" is a red herring, because it was such a common expression in Victorian songs and verse. It doesn't point to a particular suspect, or we may as well add WS Gilbert to the list.

As for BS man, I suspect he left Stride - at least temporarily - when he realised he had been seen pushing her down by Schwartz and Pipeman, who heard her call out in protest. Stride then darted into the yard as BS man walked away along Berner Street, with his back to her. Thinking she was now free of the man's unwelcome attentions, she dusted herself off and then took out her cachous, while facing the light coming from the club. She was just about to pop one in her mouth when her killer suddenly grabbed her from behind, overpowered her and cut her throat in one swift and silent movement. She had little chance to react, and never even saw her killer's face.

He could have been BS man, returning when he saw the coast was clear, determined to teach Stride a lesson. Alternatively, he could have been Pipeman, taking advantage of BS man's departure to strike while she was preoccupied. If he had turned back after seeing off Schwartz, he might have watched her entering the yard. The assault he witnessed may even have excited and provoked him, despite the risky location.

Whoever the killer was, he could hardly have hung around mutilating his victim after inflicting the fatal cut, and it's my belief his blood was up by then, so he ran off to look for a second victim.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Thank you for the information on the use of "Ha Ha" in the Victorian era, a fact of which I was completely unaware. I am not convinced the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were authored by JtR. I think that the "From Hell" letter is more likely in that regard.

I am more inclined to agree with your proposal for Pipeman being the culprit, taking the opportunity for a kill which witness testimony would point at someone else, rather than it being that someone else. That would also explain him making a move towards Schwartz to see him off, but not following him. I think Schwartz was too busy running away to know how far Pipeman followed. It would seem a little early for Diemshitz's return but since no-one knows the where-abouts of Parcelman at this time, he may have played a part in an interruption, or just someone leaving the club (the Wess story). Alternatively, if the killer wasn't JtR then mutilations may not have been part of the intention at all.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What happened to the notion of JtR being interrupted by Diemschitz?

This poll would suggest that this has historically been the most popular opinion.

[caz]

While I suspect Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky were from the ripper, the use of "Ha ha" is a red herring, because it was such a common expression in Victorian songs and verse. It doesn't point to a particular suspect, or we may as well add WS Gilbert to the list.

As for BS man, I suspect he left Stride - at least temporarily - when he realised he had been seen pushing her down by Schwartz and Pipeman, who heard her call out in protest. Stride then darted into the yard as BS man walked away along Berner Street, with his back to her. Thinking she was now free of the man's unwelcome attentions, she dusted herself off and then took out her cachous, while facing the light coming from the club. She was just about to pop one in her mouth when her killer suddenly grabbed her from behind, overpowered her and cut her throat in one swift and silent movement. She had little chance to react, and never even saw her killer's face.

He could have been BS man, returning when he saw the coast was clear, determined to teach Stride a lesson. Alternatively, he could have been Pipeman, taking advantage of BS man's departure to strike while she was preoccupied. If he had turned back after seeing off Schwartz, he might have watched her entering the yard. The assault he witnessed may even have excited and provoked him, despite the risky location.

Whoever the killer was, he could hardly have hung around mutilating his victim after inflicting the fatal cut, and it's my belief his blood was up by then, so he ran off to look for a second victim.

Love,

Caz
X

[FISHY1118]

Over on the Goldstein thread, you said ...



So apparently it was all over in matter of moments, and those moments lasted from 12:45 to 12:49!

The 'moments' claim is there to explain why the Schwartz incident went unnoticed. The 'double attack' claim is there to explain why there was no physical evidence of a BS man style attack.

This is good make it up as you go stuff.

All this shows is your getting desperate , you cant see it can you? , but then again you never could .

Theres no need to make stuff up as you put it, when we have the evidence that backs it up. You, like most just choose to ignore it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Take Schwartz out of the equation, and yes Stride's murder is no longer problematic. However, can we dismiss Schwartz's account just because the pieces don't fit?

At least one person other than myself, should be willing to do so.

What is the reason for clinging to an account that prevents the pieces from fitting together? The only way I see that this could be justified, is by supposing that at least one big piece of the puzzle is missing. That would be fine, but that is not what we have. Instead we have the repeated claim that if you're not onboard with the standard narrative, then you must be the peddler of some evil plot.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

there you go! after the slight distraction of schwartz, she may have bolted into the yard toward the singing voices and perceived help-only to be caught from behind by BS man(her scarf was pulled very tight) and had her throat slit and then BS man takes off. the whole thing could probably have only taken a couple minutes.

Only a couple of minutes to call out to the people in the kitchen, mere yards away. That's hardly enough time. Besides, with a fresh cachous in her mouth, she would have had to spit that out first. What a waste!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What part didnt you understand ? ill see if i can help you out .

12.45 , Assault on stride by BSman, 12.46 to 12.49 BSman cuts her throat in the yard , bang on time like i said , or should i draw a picture?.


Blackwell 20 to 30 mins from1.16am

Over on the Goldstein thread, you said ...

At the precise moment of the attact at 12.45 only Schwartz , BSman and Pipeman stride were involved, it quit possible was over in a matter of moments , unless you have another eyewitness account of someone else who saw what Schwartz saw at the same time ?

So apparently it was all over in matter of moments, and those moments lasted from 12:45 to 12:49!

The 'moments' claim is there to explain why the Schwartz incident went unnoticed. The 'double attack' claim is there to explain why there was no physical evidence of a BS man style attack.

This is good make it up as you go stuff.

[C. F. Leon]

Sounds more like it's describing a witch or perhaps the wife/mistress of a bad guy.

[GBinOz]

And where in the poem does it say the victim was a prostitute?

Hi MrB,

Your right, the poem doesn't use that word. It is more of an interpretation:

She shed her flower of beauty,
Grew laidly, old, and dire,
Was the demon-ridden witch,
And the consort of hell-fire:

Cheers, George

[MrBarnett]

Hi Aethelwulf,

I had to look up the Maob and midian letter too. I have to say that it put me in mind of the poetry and religious writings of Francis Thompson, particularly with the repeat of the "ha ha" from the Dear Boss letter, which was used in Thompson's poem Nightmare of the Witch-Babies, about a knight stalking and killing a prostitute and then cutting out her uterus to find two unborn children:
A lusty knight,
Ha! Ha!…
A rotten mist,
Ha! Ha!…
No one life there,
Ha! Ha!…
'Swiftly he followed her
Ha! Ha!…
Into the fogginess
Ha! Ha!…

Cheers, George

And where in the poem does it say the victim was a prostitute?

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Aethelwulf,

I had to look up the Maob and midian letter too. I have to say that it put me in mind of the poetry and religious writings of Francis Thompson, particularly with the repeat of the "ha ha" from the Dear Boss letter, which was used in Thompson's poem Nightmare of the Witch-Babies, about a knight stalking and killing a prostitute and then cutting out her uterus to find two unborn children:
A lusty knight,
Ha! Ha!…
A rotten mist,
Ha! Ha!…
No one life there,
Ha! Ha!…
'Swiftly he followed her
Ha! Ha!…
Into the fogginess
Ha! Ha!…

Cheers, George

Here is the Maob & Midian text copied from another thread:

"5 Oct 1888

Dear Friend

In the name of God hear me I swear I did not kill the female whose body was found at Whitehall. If she was an honest woman I will hunt down and destroy her murderer. If she ['was an honest woman' deleted] was a whore God will bless the hand that slew her, for the women of of [sic] Moab and Midian shall die and their blood shall mingle with the dust. I never harm any others or the Divine power that protects and helps me in my grand work would quit for ever. Do as I do and the light of glory shall shine upon you. I must get to work tomorrow treble event this time yes yes three must be ripped. will send you a bit of face by post I promise this dear old Boss. The police now reckon my work a practical joke well well Jacky's a very practical joker ha ha ha Keep this back till three are wiped out and you can show the cold meat

Yours truly
Jack the Ripper"

The biblical stuff reminds me of something Berry recollected about Bury reading religious works (below) - halfway down: