The Berner Street Con(spiracy)

[Malcolm X]

Yep, I posted that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

well ok........there's not a lot more i can say, unless you want to start another thread

[Roy Corduroy]

The Con(spiracy).

If IWMEC club members lied to protect the killer, whose identity they knew, that would be a conspiracy. But if they simply fudged the details a little, without knowing the identity of the killer, that is not a conspiracy.

If someone, such as La Grand, got Packer to lie to protect the killer, that would be a conspiracy. But if Packer simply made up extra stories in hoping for reward money, that would not be a conspiracy.

If Liz Stride was not a victim of the serial murderer, and if the police misread the signals and clues, that would not constitute a conspiracy on the part of the police, simply a mistake. The police didn't do conspiracies.

Roy

[Malcolm X]

The Con(spiracy).

If IWMEC club members lied to protect the killer, whose identity they knew, that would be a conspiracy. But if they simply fudged the details a little, without knowing the identity of the killer, that is not a conspiracy.

If someone, such as La Grand, got Packer to lie to protect the killer, that would be a conspiracy. But if Packer simply made up extra stories in hoping for reward money, that would not be a conspiracy.

If Liz Stride was not a victim of the serial murderer, and if the police misread the signals and clues, that would not constitute a conspiracy on the part of the police, simply a mistake. The police didn't do conspiracies.

Roy

yes, whatever the case, this murder is a right mess, but i think my theory makes sense too, i guess we all think our theories are correct....hence we cant agree on anything.............i dont think Stride is a ripper victim.

[c.d.]

I reread Sugden last night. Here is what he has to say with regards to Liz being a Ripper victim -- "On the evidence as it now stands, however, it seems probable that she was struck down by the slayer of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman. The case for discounting Elizabeth as a Ripper victim is not as weighty as it first appears...In many respects the Stride murder was very much like its predecessors."

"The Complete History of Jack the Ripper" by Philip Sugden, pages 210-11.

With respect to the BS man being her killer, Sugden has this to say -- "Before considering the implications of Schwartz's evidence we had best remind ourselves that there is a real possibility that his sighting had nothing to do with the murder." (p. 213)

"We do not know that he (Schwartz) was mistaken but it will always be on the cards that he was witness to nothing more than a street brawl." (p. 214)

His opinion is interesting is it not?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, CD. Sugden's opinion is always interesting - although what he says on this occasion does not preclude the scenario whereby "nothing more than" a brawl can be a prelude to manslaughter, or even murder.

[Roy Corduroy]

It's very interesting, Thanks for the quote, c.d. But it doesn't address the thread - Con(spiracy). It addresses the generic debate had many times already - "was Stride a Ripper victim." *

Likewise Mal X, your hunch that Hutch was JtR doesn't address the thread either.

So far, three possible conspiracies have been raised on this thread. Club members, Packer, and the authorities. And for any of those to be a conspiracy, someone had to know the identity of the killer, and withhold it, or lie to protect the killer.

Roy

*(who hijacked it, was it Simon? gonna send Klebb after him)

[c.d.]

Yes, I highjacked. I stand quilty as charged. I shall immediately throw myself on my sword...uh..wait...I don't have a sword. How about my Swiss Army Knife? Hope I don't land on that reamer thing. OOOh that would hurt.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

yes Sudgen is the main man, but i wonder what he'd be writing today; if he was to update his book from 2002

i wonder if he'd still favour Chapman as the ripper and state ``not proven``

[perrymason]

Taking ALL things into consideration, Mary Kelly's murder has less in common with the rest than Stride's, but I wouldn't exclude any of them offhand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I agree, and disagree,...I believe some can be discarded, and perhaps one or more added in their place....for example Alice Mckenzie has more in common with Polly, Annie and Kate than either Ms C3 or Ms C5.

Cheers Tom

[perrymason]

Im not sure why the semantics bother you so much Roy...

Wikipedia;

"A conspiracy is an agreement between natural persons to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement. There is no limit on the number participating in the conspiracy and, in most countries, no requirement that any steps have been taken to put the plan into effect (compare attempts which require proximity to the full offence). For the purposes of concurrence, the actus reus is a continuing one and parties may join "the plot" later and incur joint liability and conspiracy can be charged where the co-conspirators have been acquitted and/or cannot be traced. Finally, repentance by one or more parties does not affect liability but may reduce their sentence."

Knowingly giving false witness testimony in conjunction with other parties by prior agreement....is indeed a Conspiracy.

If the club members decided on a story, instead of telling what they saw or knew, then they conspired to break the law......thats only the story.....they may have had nothing to do with the murder itself.

As for Mr Sugden, my favorite source, he neglected to point out that Mr Israel Schwartz and his Broadshouldered Man altercation are not official records. We have only a reminiscence of the details. The records suggest that Mr Brown saw Liz last, and with a man seemingly blocking her path with his arm on the wall, nowhere near the front gates at 12:45am.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

Although many investigators freely offered their own opinions on who the Ripper killed, and most agreed that Liz should be involved, the records officially do not suggest that.

They suggest Mr Shabby Genteel likely killed Annie,... Mr Broadshouldered Man likely killed Liz Stride with Schwartz, Mr Long Coat if Browns account is used,...... Mr Sailor Man almost for certain killed Kate, and Blotchy Face is the last man seen with Mary Jane alive.

Best regards

[Natalie Severn]

Yes Michael, and non of the investigators had any idea whatever who the ripper was.None of them.And if they said they did they were living in the land of fantasy not fact.

[perrymason]

Yes Michael, and none of the investigators had any idea whatever who the ripper was.None of them.And if they said they did they were living in the land of fantasy not fact.

I fully agree Miss Nats .... Nice to see ya too.

All the best.

[Stephen Thomas]

I believe some can be discarded, and perhaps one or more added in their place....for example Alice Mckenzie has more in common with Polly, Annie and Kate than either Ms C3 or Ms C5.

Ah, Michael

You're starting to get it. Alice McKenzie was a typical JTR victim.

The fact that she wasn't regarded as such by Sir MM in his secret memorandum (not seen until the 1960s) proves a certain thing.

Which is that JTR was under lock and key in early 1889.

To my mind, anyway.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

How do you know that Jack knew how to kill like that?

I don't. I never claimed to. Those were quite clearly examples.