Those Damned Cachous

People get so worked up about these mouth fresheners. What they probably represent in this case is that Liz likely didnt know she was about to buy the farm. Cashous are not any kind of defensive weapon, and they are for people who plan on having breath to freshen. All they represent is a sudden attack at a time when she didnt realize the danger.

She quite obviously wasnt holding them for 15 minutes, they were not seen in her hand when BSM accosts her, and none were found having been shaken from her grip near the accosting site.

Accosting and shaken might be key concepts here....because if a woman in modern day was accosted on the street and falls, she might take a swig of her water bottle in her purse or knapsack afterwards.

Another key concept might be attempts at a more attractive presentation....because if she was waiting for someone specific for a "date",...remember she chose not to pay for her bed and didnt know when she might return...she obviously hadnt met up with him prior to BSM yet, cause she is still there alone when he arrives. So the "date" may still be inside.

When you take into account the twisted and nicked scarf, the single slice, and the comments that Blackwell added to the answer on how the killer got hold of her.....grabbing her by the scarf from behind, twisting it to choke her and pulling her off her feet, sliding the knife across her throat as she fell,...works with those details. And that has her facing away from her killer.....and that may be why cashous are in her hand when it happens. She was trying to walk away from the man.

Best regards all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Tom,

Don't shoot the messenger.

Heshburg said [see various press reports]: "It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter . . . In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous."

Dr Blackwell: I arrived at 1.16 am . . . The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

[Whether or not Heshburg was right about the time, he was in Dutfields Yard before Doctor Blackwell arrived, at which time there were only five or six cachous in Stride's hand].

Fifteen to twenty minutes later Dr Phillips arrived in Dutfields Yard.

Dr. Phillips: a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell.

Dr Phillips [recalled]: Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

Dr Blackwell [recalled]: I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view [Johnston hadn't seen it]. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.

If we believe Heshburg, Stride died holding a maximum of six cachous. Blackwell spilt some of them [let's say four] in trying to remove them from Stride's hand, leaving two for Dr Phillips to remove and give to Blackwell.

Stride's left hand was "lying on the ground". The four cachous which Blackwell spilt didn't have far to fall, so how did they become "scattered about the yard"?

BTW, Edward Spooner "noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand", but don't let's go there just yet.

Regards,

Simon

[Malcolm X]

True, but even if she'd had them in her hands when the BS assault occurred, it doesn't necessarily follow that she'd have relaxed her grip on them even then. Perhaps negotiating the folds typical of Victorian clothing would have made it rather pointless for her to try and stuff them into her pocket in that instant of time.

true, but it's more likely that she'd open her hands when falling over though, because it's natural to do so...

my main problem is, this attack is too early on.... i think Stride died very close to 1am, because me and Perrymason tried our hardest but we couldn't suss this out, it's the last 15 minutes that stride isn't seen that makes no sense, bearing in mind that witnesses were indeed around.

so these breath fresheners to me are of secondary importance, my guess is that she got them out later on for the person that she was intending to meet in Dutfields

[Sam Flynn]

you're assuming that she had these fresheners in her hand when BS attacked her, maybe not, maybe she got them out later on..... we have no proof that BS killed her

True, but even if she'd had them in her hands when the BS assault occurred, it doesn't necessarily follow that she'd have relaxed her grip on them even then. Perhaps negotiating the folds typical of Victorian clothing would have made it rather pointless for her to try and stuff them into her pocket in that instant of time.

[Malcolm X]

you're assuming that she had these fresheners in her hand when BS attacked her, maybe not, maybe she got them out later on..... we have no proof that BS killed her

[c.d.]

I give up, Sam.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

You're just not going to budge here are you, Sam?

It's not a question of budging or not, CD. I just don't see anything particularly odd about it.

As to her falling to the ground and the cachous remaining intact and in her hand, do you not think that a bit strange?

Not as strange as the alternative possibilities - that the killer hurriedly wedged the cachous in there before rushing off; or that Liz fished them out with her last ounce of strength, in an effort to smell slightly less rancid when she met St Peter

[c.d.]

You're just not going to budge here are you, Sam? It is hard to punch someone when they are in close proximity and I think it a much more instinctive action to try to push yourself away.

As to her falling to the ground and the cachous remaining intact and in her hand, do you not think that a bit strange? (I can guess the answer already).

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Doesn't that assume that Liz had her hand in a fist the whole time? Wouldn't it be more natural to have your palm open so that she could push herself away from the BS man?

I can't see why her attempting to punch him should be ruled out, CD.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

Doesn't that assume that Liz had her hand in a fist the whole time? Wouldn't it be more natural to have your palm open so that she could push herself away from the BS man?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi CD,

I meant how did the cachous packet remain in her hand unbroken thoughout her ordeal with the BS man.

A paper packet in the hand wouldn't necessarily burst, as the fingers would be enclosing it. However a vertical tugging force, such as that applied by Dr Blackwell, might well cause the packet to tear. It's also possible that the packet had in fact partly burst prior to Liz's death, and that it was only the intervention of Blackwell that caused the contents to escape.

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Well I am trying to get as many explanations as possible to see how many of them are feasible.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

CD,

You seem to be asking the same question over and over. Either BS Man was a figment of Schwartz's imagination or she wasn't holding the cachous when she fell.

Simon,

Abraham was clear that he arrived in Dutfield's Yard following the discovery of the body by Diemschutz, so please don't suggest that he said anything different, regardless of whatever timing estimates were offered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

I meant how did the cachous packet remain in her hand unbroken thoughout her ordeal with the BS man.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Do you have an explanation as to how the cachous remained in her hand?

Tissue paper is rather thin, CD. If the bag burst when Blackwell was removing it, then some of the contents might simply have settled in her palm. From a cachou's perspective a dead hand is no different to a gutter - and they were quite happy to stay there.