Those Damned Cachous

[Mrs Darrell]

Liz used to live off the Commercial Road didn't she? i don't think Devonshire St. exists now (does anyone know what it's called now?)

Perhaps she had arranged to meet a former client/friend there, or someone she knew frequented the club?

[Malcolm X]

If on the other hand, she did not have the cachous in her hand when first approached by the BS man, when did she take them out? This is what confuses me. My good friend Ben calls Liz being thrown to the ground a vicious assault. My good friend Michael sites a time frame that he believes indicates that Liz was killed by the BS man just minutes after this vicious assault. But what does Liz do during these precious few minutes? Despite having been just viciously assaulted and presumably being dragged by the BS man into a darkened yard, she figures the best course of action for her is to freshen her breath. To me, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. To me, it indicates that she felt the danger, i.e., the BS man, had passed. Which is what I think happened. He threw her to the ground, cussed her out and went on his way.

c.d.

yes exactly she was waiting for someone at Dutfields yard ( before BS came along and definitely a man friend) , but because she wasn't seen again after 12.45, was she either in the yard, (already dead) or in the yard (still alive) or inside the club...

breath fresheners in her hand.... i expect after BS attacked her and maybe walked off, that Stride got the breath fresheners out and walked back into Dutfields yard..carried on waiting for her new man.

1.....did BS double back like grease lightning and kill her.... he didn't have much time because Schwartz could've gone to fetch a copper.

2....did someone from inside the club kill here...her new man!

3....did the real ripper see all of this at range and decide to kill Stride..

my guess is there's only one thing that you can maybe rely on...........BS walked off and walked out of Stride's sight.....

YES I'LL STICK WITH THIS .....BS walked off and Stride got out her breath fresheners thinking she was safe. .... now then, this is a huge clue.............you are now extremely close to her time of death

[Sam Flynn]

i'm sorry i dont understand you at all........Schwartz saw Stride being dragged out of the yard...nothing else! ...that is obviously what i meant.

But it's not what you said, Mal. Whether you mean something or not, others might get the wrong impression if you don't actually say what you mean - and you wouldn't want people getting the wrong ideas, would you? I was just clarifying that point.

Tom has explained precisely what I was getting at, for which many thanks.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Mal,

I think what Sam meant is that when someone says (and this is only an example), "Stride was dragged OUT of the yard, NOT into it," what they're effectively doing is eliminately the latter as a possibility, when in fact it could have happened after Schwartz left. The fact that her body was found in the yard at least suggests the possibility. Therefore, the proper way of constructing the statement would be "Schwartz saw Stride dragged OUT of the yard, NOT into it," which would be factually accurate and still leave room for the possibility that events occured which Schwartz did not witness.

It IS a fact that after Schwartz left, Stride somehow found herself back in the yard. That she was physically forced into the yard is a real possbility.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. You're not being singled out or picked on. Sam gave me 'what for' about this exact thing just a couple weeks ago.

[c.d.]

I don't see the cachous as being a minor point at all. I think they are probably the most important clue that we have as to what actually happened. If she had the cachous in her hand when approached by the BS man, despite being thrown to the ground and dragged to her death and throughout all her struggles, this little packet remains in her hand unbroken.

If on the other hand, she did not have the cachous in her hand when first approached by the BS man, when did she take them out? This is what confuses me. My good friend Ben calls Liz being thrown to the ground a vicious assault. My good friend Michael sites a time frame that he believes indicates that Liz was killed by the BS man just minutes after this vicious assault. But what does Liz do during these precious few minutes? Despite having been just viciously assaulted and presumably being dragged by the BS man into a darkened yard, she figures the best course of action for her is to freshen her breath. To me, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. To me, it indicates that she felt the danger, i.e., the BS man, had passed. Which is what I think happened. He threw her to the ground, cussed her out and went on his way.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

Not quite, Mal, otherwise I wouldn't have felt compelled to elaborate. You said "Stride wasn't dragged into the yard by BS", whereas, to be strictly accurate, all we know is that "Schwartz saw Stride being dragged out of the yard by BS". Sorry to be so pedantic, but it pays to be careful sometimes

i'm sorry i dont understand you at all........Schwartz saw Stride being dragged out of the yard...nothing else! ...that is obviously what i meant.

but if she was dragged back in later on, that's pure speculation only.

[Sam Flynn]

too true, but that's what i said

Not quite, Mal, otherwise I wouldn't have felt compelled to elaborate. You said "Stride wasn't dragged into the yard by BS", whereas, to be strictly accurate, all we know is that "Schwartz saw Stride being dragged out of the yard by BS". Sorry to be so pedantic, but it pays to be careful sometimes

[Malcolm X]

She was seen being dragged out, to be precise. It doesn't mean that, once Schwartz and Pipeman had skedaddled from the scene, she wasn't pulled (or pushed) back in again.

too true, but that's what i said

as regards to later on, nobody has any idea for sure what happened...or even her time of death

we can speculate yes, but the trouble is do we trust these witnesses, i dont...so where do we start, we have no concrete foundations to work from... even this time of 12.45 might be incorrect.

[Tom_Wescott]

Simon,

I share your curiosity on these matters, which is why I wrote my essay exploring these very inconsistencies and 'peripheral mysteries' in the Berner Street case. I feel that most of these mysteries are merely the result of rushed and - in some cases - incompetent journalism. Also confused witness evidence. There never were any grapes. The cachous were never in Stride's 'right' hand and they should be viewed as a clue moreso than a mystery. The blood drops on Stride's hand were probably transfered there from her neck by Edward Johnston. And Stride was not inside the club that night.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

no, Stride wasn't dragged into the yard by BS, she was dragged out

She was seen being dragged out, to be precise. It doesn't mean that, once Schwartz and Pipeman had skedaddled from the scene, she wasn't pulled (or pushed) back in again.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Michael,

How could it be that Liz didn't know she was in danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man and then dragged into the yard?

c.d.

no, Stride wasn't dragged into the yard by BS, she was dragged out

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

How could it be that Liz didn't know she was in danger after being thrown to the ground by the BS man and then dragged into the yard?

c.d.

Hi Michael,

Stride's breath probably stank like a polecat, but the only reason I give a damn about the cachous is because the evidence is at odds with itself. Same with the grapes and Matthew Packer. A lot of time and trouble obviously went into making Stride a canonical victim, and I would like to know why rather than simply swallowing the nonsensical "Ripper was interrupted" version of events.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Im all for you highlighting inconsistencies and questioning the case made for Liz as a Ripper victim, didnt mean to convey anything different.

My particular take on this evening is one of an Unfortunate having a date that she may have looked forward to....and of Socialists creating an environment that may have attracted a Ripper, from outside their ranks.

Liz is killed in a manner that could be executed by any angry thug, on Socialist property, and the closest thing to an interruption that the killer may have had,...by the opinion of the first senior medical opinion onsite, would be by Goldstein, not Diemshutz,...there seems some fairly obvious motivation for club members to re-arrange some details in order to dodge suspicions.

I think this evening culminates with just such an accusation being made by the killer of Mitre Square himself

People were probably "avoiding blame" at 40 Berner.

Best regards Simon.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

Stride's breath probably stank like a polecat, but the only reason I give a damn about the cachous is because the evidence is at odds with itself. Same with the grapes and Matthew Packer. A lot of time and trouble obviously went into making Stride a canonical victim, and I would like to know why rather than simply swallowing the nonsensical "Ripper was interrupted" version of events.

Regards,

Simon

[Jon Guy]

People get so worked up about these mouth fresheners. Cashous are not any kind of defensive weapon

I imagine a sharpened cashous could be quite dangerous Mike.