Those Damned Cachous

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"Just because Schwartz did not see someone in the shadows of the yard, especially when his attention was taken by BS-man, does not mean nobody was there.

That possibility puts a completely different picture on the outcome."

Indeed. So, IF Liz were with someone, he would be slightly inside the yard whilst Liz was just outside--near the gate. I presume she is facing west, conversing with the bloke.

Now, BSM appears from the north and stops to chat. She turns and answers.

Finish?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Yes, if Schwartz had only said whether Stride was stood facing the street, or facing the yard, we would have a better clue that she was with someone.

As it stands, it is possible she was with a man, as she had been all night.
Why BS-man stopped when passing her is anybody's guess, perhaps he though to cast scorn on her, assuming what she was up to.

If the man Stride was with already had criminal intentions then he may well have stepped back into the shadows as the altercation unfolded, rather than step forward to help her.
BS-man may have seen him, but Schwartz passing further away and obviously distracted, did not.

This only works for me if the man Stride was in the yard with was 'JtR', otherwise I have trouble accepting another total stranger would kill her.

As it is I struggle with this being a JtR murder to start with.

[c.d.]

Hello Rocky.

"Could Liz have been hanging out in the yard taking clients from the club?"

1. Penniless anarchists?

2. Where did she fulfill her end (no pun intended) of the bargain? The privy, perhaps?

3. Where was the money she would have earned?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I simply don't understand your reasoning on this. Your views as to whether Liz was actually a prostitute are well known, but in this instance, for the sake of argument, let's assume that she was. What type of clientele do you envision she would have? Members of the upper class or royalty perhaps? Of course her clients were going to be penniless. They were among the poor of Whitechapel. Who else would pay for her services? And as for them being so dedicated to their cause that sex was out of the question...ask any woman on this board about men. Enough said.

c.d.

[GUT]

Hello Lynn,

I simply don't understand your reasoning on this. Your views as to whether Liz was actually a prostitute are well known, but in this instance, for the sake of argument, let's assume that she was. What type of clientele do you envision she would have? Members of the upper class or royalty perhaps? Of course her clients were going to be penniless. They were among the poor of Whitechapel. Who else would pay for her services? And as for them being so dedicated to their cause that sex was out of the question...ask any woman on this board about men. Enough said.

c.d.

G'day cd

Your not suggesting that men [most anyway] like sex are you? .

[c.d.]

Hello GUT,

I think Lenny Bruce put it most eloquently when he said that men will **** mud.

c.d.

[Ginger]

"Could Liz have been hanging out in the yard taking clients from the club?"

1. Penniless anarchists?

They could afford to have a (fairly large) clubhouse with a piano, and they printed their own newspaper.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, if Schwartz had only said whether Stride was stood facing the street, or facing the yard, we would have a better clue that she was with someone.

Hi Wick, I'm sure you know that Schwartz has her standing in the gateway talking with BS Man who was on the pavement ahead of him, so it makes sense that if she was looking in the direction of the man she was speaking with she must have been looking towards the street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Great Expectations

Hello Abby. Thanks.

"The bs man attack I could see her holding on to through choice."

Possibly. But that depends on whether or not the attack was expected.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

theft

Hello Tom. Thanks.

"1. Penniless anarchists who were drawing in people with money. Oh, and they had a bunch of free alcohol on hand."

Not sure which well-heeled gent was there?

"2. That was a big yard, with side cottages and dark corners."

Very well. Perhaps at the sack makers?

"3. The Ripper robbed her as he did the other victims, hence the packet of cachous in her hand, the items at Chapman's feet and head, and the thimble next to Eddowes' hand."

Umm, if Kate were robbed then:

A. She had found a source of money after all.

B. Her assailant were a fool not to take her cigarette case.

"Abby's view of Stride is sweet and romantic but not altogether supported by the facts, which point most likely to an evening of prostitution with numerous men."

Unlike my hard bitten cynical view. Many men? Perhaps. Consummation? Perhaps not.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

hidden bloke

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Why BS-man stopped when passing her is anybody's guess, perhaps he though to cast scorn on her, assuming what she was up to."

Well, this would be most probable, PROVIDED she called out to him in solicitation. But IF she had, she would be neglecting her hidden bloke.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

views

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Your views as to whether Liz was actually a prostitute are well known, . . ."

I doubt that. She likely were one at some point/s in her life.

". . . but in this instance, for the sake of argument, let's assume that she was."

Very well.

"What type of clientele do you envision she would have?"

Preferably, lustful dock workers who had just gotten paid. Or, someone on Commercial.

"Members of the upper class or royalty perhaps?"

Doubtful--although some of these gents liked to "slum" in the East End, and Liz WAS relatively attractive.

"Of course her clients were going to be penniless. They were among the poor of Whitechapel."

Ah! So, Liz was administering her charitable contribution? I like it.

"And as for them being so dedicated to their cause that sex was out of the question...ask any woman on this board about men."

That is NOT the claim. IF Liz were soliciting, then perhaps she was dedicated to receiving compensation?

Cheers.
LC

[RockySullivan]

Is there a flower a clue towards what Liz was up to that night? I find it hard to believe she was looking for a new boyfriend in the yard next to an anarchist club that late. Could it be possible the club turned a blind eye on prostitution in the yard? Would prostitutes wear a flower pinned on their chest as a way to attract more johns?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick, I'm sure you know that Schwartz has her standing in the gateway talking with BS Man who was on the pavement ahead of him, so it makes sense that if she was looking in the direction of the man she was speaking with she must have been looking towards the street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.
Not in any English version.
All I read is that the man stopped and spoke to the woman, nothing about her speaking back, and certainly no indication she was facing him at the time.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Why BS-man stopped when passing her is anybody's guess, perhaps he though to cast scorn on her, assuming what she was up to."

Well, this would be most probable, PROVIDED she called out to him in solicitation. But IF she had, she would be neglecting her hidden bloke.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
If the man was drunk, why would he wait for an invitation?
I'm assuming such a character will interrupt the couple if he recognised Stride as a local prostitute, and decided to reprimand her on the spot.

There are a few aspects of this case I am not sure about, so I don't buy wholly into any explanation at the moment.

The biggest annoyance for me is the description of the man she was with at the Bricklayers Arms.
I'm suspicious that this was not the last she saw of him.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom.
Not in any English version.
All I read is that the man stopped and spoke to the woman, nothing about her speaking back, and certainly no indication she was facing him at the time.

You're good peeps, Wick, but a strange bird.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Is there a flower a clue towards what Liz was up to that night? I find it hard to believe she was looking for a new boyfriend in the yard next to an anarchist club that late. Could it be possible the club turned a blind eye on prostitution in the yard? Would prostitutes wear a flower pinned on their chest as a way to attract more johns?

Rocky,

Here's what Wess said about the yeard: [Coroner] Or in the club yard? - I did once, at eleven o'clock at night, about a year ago. They were chatting near the gates. That is the only time I have noticed such a thing, nor have I heard of it.

So one time, and a year ago. Either he was in denial, or it wasn't the place for a prostitute to conduct business. I would suggest that club members would have frowned upon such things too... in public.

Mike