Those Damned Cachous

[GUT]

Hoping to be hired to help clean the club after the meeting seems most likely to me. The club members don't strike me as the sort who hired cleaning women for their homes.

Sorry that's what I meant looking for work cleaning the club rather than looking for work cleaning houses as opposed to being already engaged to work that night.

Already have the work seemed unlikely as surely someone at the club would have said something.

I would have thought that a busy club would have had cleaners but there was a lot of piece work in those days, so it's possible.

[Bridewell]

The woman cleaned.

I have yet to see any argument that would supersede that knowledge we have of her as it may apply to her being outside a club that just hosted a large meeting. She was at work with the Jews in her most recent past, why would anyone discount her being at the club for the same reasons?

It makes no sense to do so.

Cheers

She had been hanging around on the same street for what - an hour or so? That suggests that she was either soliciting or waiting for someone or something. We know she worked as a cleaner and had, at one time in her youth, been classified as a prostitute. If she wasn't soliciting - and talking to several different men on the same street in the small hours of the morning suggests that this has to be a possibility - she may have been waiting to start work. If the latter, someone at the Club would have known who she was and why she was there. I can't see that there would have been any harm done by admitting the fact - yet nobody did.

As for the cachous - the cutting of her throat might have caused the cadaveric spasm response referred to by other posters. I can't imagine that she would have held onto them so as to identify her assailant - the stuff of fiction IMHO.

[GUT]

She had been hanging around on the same street for what - an hour or so? That suggests that she was either soliciting or waiting for someone or something. We know she worked as a cleaner and had, at one time in her youth, been classified as a prostitute. If she wasn't soliciting - and talking to several different men on the same street in the small hours of the morning suggests that this has to be a possibility - she may have been waiting to start work. If the latter, someone at the Club would have known who she was and why she was there. I can't see that there would have been any harm done by admitting the fact - yet nobody did.

As for the cachous - the cutting of her throat might have caused the cadaveric spasm response referred to by other posters. I can't imagine that she would have held onto them so as to identify her assailant - the stuff of fiction IMHO.

G'day Bridewell

Whilst I in general agree with what you say here there is the outside possibility that she was hoping to pick up some work, personally don't think so, but people looking for casual work did hang around for hours [some of these people were desperate for work].

I suspect that the club would have had regular cleaners after all its not as if this night [unless I misunderstand things] was a one off or even irregular event.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I thought they were the licorice hard candy like these http://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cachou_Lajaunie and all thought I don't read French it has 1880 as the date.

Translating: It is a "pellet" made from the juices of a palm tree (acacia catechu) and licorice flavored. ingredients: liquorice, sugar, starch, lactose, aromatized gelatine, powder of catechu, powder iris, resin of mastic tree, English mint essence.

They were breath fresheners created by a Toulouse pharmacist in 1880 and had an immediate success all across Europe.

Vanilla and Mint flavored were also commercialised, but I don't know when.

They were tiny little black cubes. They came in a little round boxe, and to get one out of the box we had to align both cover and bottom openings. Which explains why they weren't everywhere around her body.

[RockySullivan]

John, the mints were wrapped in tissue paper not in a tin. Not sure of those were the ones but that's what I imagined. Why did she have the flower pinned on?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

John, the mints were wrapped in tissue paper not in a tin.

So she probably got them from someone who had a box.

[RockySullivan]

So she probably got them from someone who had a box.

Maybe or she could've bought a smaller amount. I feel like she may have gotten the flower & cachous at the same time

[SirJohnFalstaff]

John, the mints were wrapped in tissue paper not in a tin. Not sure of those were the ones but that's what I imagined. Why did she have the flower pinned on?

Wait.

From the inquest: "The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper."

Excuse my English (second language) but how does this exclude the tin can being wrapped in a tissue paper?

[RockySullivan]

Wait.

From the inquest: "The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper."

Excuse my English (second language) but how does this exclude the tin can being wrapped in a tissue paper?

Hm maybe your right then. But why would the packet be wrapped in tissue paper?

[Ginger]

its not as if this night [unless I misunderstand things] was a one off or even irregular event.

I'd understood it to be Guest Night at the club, so that there'd presumably be a larger than usual crowd, and you'd not task the guests with picking up after themselves as the regular members might be expected to do. If it happened on a regular basis (once a month, e.g.), then it might be known among the local charwomen that you could sometimes pick up a night's casual work there.

I do agree that it's odd that, if she'd cleaned there before, no-one admitted to knowing her, even if just as "that charwoman". Lying about it (unless there was much more to the situation than meets the eye) seems much riskier than telling the truth. I think it's most probable that she'd never worked there before, but heard about the place from someone else.

[GUT]

I'd understood it to be Guest Night at the club, so that there'd presumably be a larger than usual crowd, and you'd not task the guests with picking up after themselves as the regular members might be expected to do. If it happened on a regular basis (once a month, e.g.), then it might be known among the local charwomen that you could sometimes pick up a night's casual work there.

I do agree that it's odd that, if she'd cleaned there before, no-one admitted to knowing her, even if just as "that charwoman". Lying about it (unless there was much more to the situation than meets the eye) seems much riskier than telling the truth. I think it's most probable that she'd never worked there before, but heard about the place from someone else.

A couple of points.

How frequent were guests nights, I had understood them to be a regular event. (ie as you suggest perhaps monthly).

Yes casual staff [as we might call them today] would wait around for hours waiting to pick up some work, but if that wa the case wouldn't we expect there to be more than just her waiting?

[GUT]

Hm maybe your right then. But why would the packet be wrapped in tissue paper?

Note packet not tin.

If it was say a plastic type bag they often rip so wrapping them in tissue [or something else] is a necessity, I know my missus often has a packet of eucalyptus wrapped in a hanky or similar because the packaging has torn.

Cachous were used as a cough suppressant, if you have a cough might you also have a tissue.

And that presupposes that the report was correct and that they were in a packet and then wrapped in tissue.

[Tom_Wescott]

There were six and seven loose pieces wrapped in tissue paper lodged between her thumb and forefinger. No plastic bag or tin.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ginger]

A couple of points.

How frequent were guests nights, I had understood them to be a regular event. (ie as you suggest perhaps monthly).

I'm afraid I haven't a clue. Somewhere in that huge pile of 'Arbeiter's Fraint' that Lynn Cates had translated, it may say.

Yes casual staff [as we might call them today] would wait around for hours waiting to pick up some work, but if that wa the case wouldn't we expect there to be more than just her waiting?

Perhaps the rain discouraged them. Perhaps they had a 'regular' casual who couldn't make it for some reason, and told Liz about the chance. Perhaps Liz got there first, and that established her right to the spot amongst the others. Maybe they never hired casuals, but Liz was hoping to get lucky. I'm flailing away wildly here, but I think they're all at least plausible.

[GUT]

Translating: It is a "pellet" made from the juices of a palm tree (acacia catechu) and licorice flavored. ingredients: liquorice, sugar, starch, lactose, aromatized gelatine, powder of catechu, powder iris, resin of mastic tree, English mint essence.

They were breath fresheners created by a Toulouse pharmacist in 1880 and had an immediate success all across Europe.

Vanilla and Mint flavored were also commercialised, but I don't know when.

They were tiny little black cubes. They came in a little round boxe, and to get one out of the box we had to align both cover and bottom openings. Which explains why they weren't everywhere around her body.

However Cachou is a generic term for a pastille, pill or lolly used to freshen the breath the word was first known to be used about 1879. According to some sources Leon Lajaunie didn't invent his version till about 1890. Though other sources do say 1880.