Those Damned Cachous

[lynn cates]

Blackwell

Hello Rocky.

"Was Stride's throat cut from the opposite direction of the others?"

No--unless you refer to "MJK" only.

"Could she have been cut from behind as opposed to the others?"

I think she was. (Opposed to the others?)

Have you seen my reenactment? I have coordinated it to Dr. Blackwell's suggestion about being pulled down from behind.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Clearly there are any number of things that could have happened, and we sort of have to pick and choose our speculations.

That being said, Let us assume that the initial attack did happen. Let's say I'm Liz. And I have a nasty incident with some jerk who tosses me around a bit, but not with any particular force or violence. Like, he doesn't start punching me or kicking me or anything, so apparently whatever his deal is, it's more venting than violent. I may even know him. And this guy and his buddy go running off after some poor schmuck. I'm pissed and a little shaken.

There's a reason I am Liz. I too am a woman, I am a smoker, and I am not unaccustomed to hanging around jerks. I want three things in this order. First, I'm going to leave the scene. Regardless of whether or not I'm actually in fear of my life, I was embarrassed by what happened. I'm not going to stick around. Secondly, I want a cigarette. A pipe. A cigar. Something. I'm likely shaking a little, I'm likely embarrassed, pissed off, and just generally not at all calm. We smokers train ourselves to treat these emotions with nicotine. I need a smoke. Maybe I need to go get one. Say, the front stoop of a business or a club. I finish the stub of a cigar or something, and I start walking back. Now if I'm soliciting, I need a cachous at this point. Especially if I see a potential customer. But even if I'm not soliciting, it's probably a habit at this point to eat one after a smoke. And they are essentially candy, and I've had a bad day. I might eat another. And another. Who knows?

I only take them out after the initial squabble. And I still have them out because either I just smoked, or I need a sugar fix.

[Wickerman]

The "Elephant in the room" in this whole scenario is the question - why was Stride standing in that gateway 'apparently' alone?, when it appears that she had been seen several times that night, and each time with an escort - never alone.

Was she really alone?

Just because Schwartz did not see someone in the shadows of the yard, especially when his attention was taken by BS-man, does not mean nobody was there.

That possibility puts a completely different picture on the outcome.

[Michael W Richards]

The "Elephant in the room" in this whole scenario is the question - why was Stride standing in that gateway 'apparently' alone?, when it appears that she had been seen several times that night, and each time with an escort - never alone.

Was she really alone?

Just because Schwartz did not see someone in the shadows of the yard, especially when his attention was taken by BS-man, does not mean nobody was there.

That possibility puts a completely different picture on the outcome.

When we suggest scenarios Jon that have no foundation within the known evidence, it isn't really helping the cause. To add, she was never seen soliciting, she was seen talking...and with Fanny at the street facing door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50...when she remained there until 1am, she saw no-one.

The cashous almost certainly suggest Liz was attacked without warning, anything else is pure speculation.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

When we suggest scenarios Jon that have no foundation within the known evidence, it isn't really helping the cause.

This is perfectly true, in cases where the evidence is complete, and the practical solution is apparent.
This is not the case here, we have a hole in our knowledge of events in those last fifteen minutes.
So long as Swanson can see the logic in allowing for the presence, or appearance, of another person, so should we.

The cashous almost certainly suggest Liz was attacked without warning, anything else is pure speculation.

Exactly, so lets entertain the same level of speculation that Swanson did at the time.

[Batman]

The cashous almost certainly suggest Liz was attacked without warning, anything else is pure speculation.

Cheers

Without warning doesn't mean not being with the person before they strike.

This is the Fencing Response.



The brain continues to move after the skull slows down. There is massive amount of cellular activity in the brain with stimuli from this response to life threatening seizure. Clutching is not abnormal.

You can kill someone doing this.

[GUT]

Clearly there are any number of things that could have happened, and we sort of have to pick and choose our speculations.

That being said, Let us assume that the initial attack did happen. Let's say I'm Liz. And I have a nasty incident with some jerk who tosses me around a bit, but not with any particular force or violence. Like, he doesn't start punching me or kicking me or anything, so apparently whatever his deal is, it's more venting than violent. I may even know him. And this guy and his buddy go running off after some poor schmuck. I'm pissed and a little shaken.

There's a reason I am Liz. I too am a woman, I am a smoker, and I am not unaccustomed to hanging around jerks. I want three things in this order. First, I'm going to leave the scene. Regardless of whether or not I'm actually in fear of my life, I was embarrassed by what happened. I'm not going to stick around. Secondly, I want a cigarette. A pipe. A cigar. Something. I'm likely shaking a little, I'm likely embarrassed, pissed off, and just generally not at all calm. We smokers train ourselves to treat these emotions with nicotine. I need a smoke. Maybe I need to go get one. Say, the front stoop of a business or a club. I finish the stub of a cigar or something, and I start walking back. Now if I'm soliciting, I need a cachous at this point. Especially if I see a potential customer. But even if I'm not soliciting, it's probably a habit at this point to eat one after a smoke. And they are essentially candy, and I've had a bad day. I might eat another. And another. Who knows?

I only take them out after the initial squabble. And I still have them out because either I just smoked, or I need a sugar fix.

G'day Errata

That's logical.

So by many posts on casebook it must be wrong.

[Ginger]

To me, if she just did a fellatio to her killer, I would consider Stride not being a ripper victim more seriously.

I missed this the first time, but I really doubt that. It had been raining, the ground was wet, and the alleyway itself was filthy. It was (among other things) the gateway to a stable. I can't see her kneeling outdoors like that.

[Ginger]

And they are essentially candy, and I've had a bad day. I might eat another. And another. Who knows?

I only take them out after the initial squabble. And I still have them out because either I just smoked, or I need a sugar fix.

That makes a great deal of sense, yes.

[Wickerman]

It did occur to me that Dr. Phillips might have thought to mention traces of cachous in her mouth or intestines seeing as they were in her hands.
He did comment on the lack of evidence for grapes.

The fact he didn't comment on the cachous at the inquest may indicate he found no traces that she had used any before her murder.
If not, why not?

[GUT]

It did occur to me that Dr. Phillips might have thought to mention traces of cachous in her mouth or intestines seeing as they were in her hands.
He did comment on the lack of evidence for grapes.

The fact he didn't comment on the cachous at the inquest may indicate he found no traces that she had used any before her murder.
If not, why not?

G'day Jon

A rarity I disagree with you.

He commented on the lack of grapes, because based on Packer he expected to find them and ddn't.

He didn't comment on cachous because based on them being in her hand he expected to find them and did. Though I also did wonder how long traces of cachous would remain detectable.

Has always been my take on that issue. [But it can only be opinion]

[Errata]

It did occur to me that Dr. Phillips might have thought to mention traces of cachous in her mouth or intestines seeing as they were in her hands.
He did comment on the lack of evidence for grapes.

The fact he didn't comment on the cachous at the inquest may indicate he found no traces that she had used any before her murder.
If not, why not?

It's been awhile, but to my recollection they are akin to the texture of buttermints (or Chinese restaurant mints in my family) or those message hearts from valentine's day. It's not like a peppermint or some other boiled candy. A cachou is as much starch as sugar, so it's gone in a minute or so. You don't really swallow them. Theres nothing solid int the stomach, just a solution.

Assuming of course it stayed in her mouth when she was attacked the second time. In which case it was far more likely to have gone in a lung than in the stomach, and in either case the candy would have dissolved completely long before she was opened up on a slab.

[GUT]

It's been awhile, but to my recollection they are akin to the texture of buttermints (or Chinese restaurant mints in my family) or those message hearts from valentine's day. It's not like a peppermint or some other boiled candy. A cachou is as much starch as sugar, so it's gone in a minute or so. You don't really swallow them. Theres nothing solid int the stomach, just a solution.

Assuming of course it stayed in her mouth when she was attacked the second time. In which case it was far more likely to have gone in a lung than in the stomach, and in either case the candy would have dissolved completely long before she was opened up on a slab.

Thanks Errata That's what I was wondering if it would simply dissolve leaving nothing to find.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Errata That's what I was wondering if it would simply dissolve leaving nothing to find.

It is not easy finding one satisfactory description of what a cachous actually was. By accounts there were a variety of sweets generically called cachous.
Several of us have spent no small time attempting to solve this minor issue.

And incidentally, I don't disagree with your objection (earlier), I was really posing a question more than anything.

[Wickerman]

It's been awhile, but to my recollection they are akin to the texture of buttermints (or Chinese restaurant mints in my family) or those message hearts from valentine's day. It's not like a peppermint or some other boiled candy.

Thanks, well todays "cachous" are not the cachous of yesteryear. In fact one of the older sources does describe one version of the cachous as a derivative of the boiled sweet. It is a very confusing subject to find exactly what they were like in England in 1888.

Not forgetting one source that describes them as "sweetmeats". What was she really holding in that packet?