If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Mrs Darrell]

Let's suppose that Jack is the killer and that Israel Schwartz was persuaded to make up his story by members of the club. Let's also assume that the man Brown saw Liz with is the ripper and her killer (I have some image for some reason of him saying something to Liz that is similar to what Hutchinson heard his man say to Mary- help anyone?).

Say that he isn't happy about Dutfields Yard but she persuades him to go in? Now perhaps he was disturbed twice- first by Leon Goldstein. If he was in the process of killing her then and heard him walk by, this may have made him stop. Then he looks to make sure that Goldstein has passed by- returns to Liz who is by now dead, but cannot begin mutilating her as the cart arrives.

A lot of if buts and maybe's I know but none of us will ever know for sure anyway.

[perrymason]

Let's suppose that Jack is the killer and that Israel Schwartz was persuaded to make up his story by members of the club. Let's also assume that the man Brown saw Liz with is the ripper and her killer (I have some image for some reason of him saying something to Liz that is similar to what Hutchinson heard his man say to Mary- help anyone?).

Say that he isn't happy about Dutfields Yard but she persuades him to go in? Now perhaps he was disturbed twice- first by Leon Goldstein. If he was in the process of killing her then and heard him walk by, this may have made him stop. Then he looks to make sure that Goldstein has passed by- returns to Liz who is by now dead, but cannot begin mutilating her as the cart arrives.

A lot of if buts and maybe's I know but none of us will ever know for sure anyway.

For me the problem has always been the assumption that Jack would allow himself to be led somewhere insecure to do his thing Mrs D. So one interruption I can deal with based on medical testimony, but with 2 interruptions ...I think we are straying from his model now.

If he moved into the backyard at Hanbury for privacy so he could complete his tasks, why would his next kill be feet from the street again... behind an open gate where anyone might enter?

Plus he knows men are in the club still, they are heard singing, and the side door access to the club was slightly ajar according to Mrs Diemshutz in the kitchen.

Its a place where he could assume he would be interrupted, not the reverse.

Best regards Mrs Darrell.

[Mrs Darrell]

Hi Mike

My name is Darrell by the way, and Im a guy, but I don't see or hear my name very often (let alone spelt the right way), so when I saw it connected with JTR I couldn't resist.

Was Jack that careful though- Hanbury Street posed many problem with all the people living at no 29- he may have eventually and Mitre Square had a warehouse with a nightwatchmen and a policeman patrolling by. maybe the thrill of being caught was exciting to him. If he is Liz's killer then the turning of the cart into the yard would force him to stop.

Your club member hypothesis is very compelling though, granted.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike

My name is Darrell by the way, and Im a guy, but I don't see or hear my name very often (let alone spelt the right way), so when I saw it connected with JTR I couldn't resist.

Was Jack that careful though- Hanbury Street posed many problem with all the people living at no 29- he may have eventually and Mitre Square had a warehouse with a nightwatchmen and a policeman patrolling by. maybe the thrill of being caught was exciting to him. If he is Liz's killer then the turning of the cart into the yard would force him to stop.

Your club member hypothesis is very compelling though, granted.

Nice to meet you Darrell, glad you cleared that up for me.

Both Hanbury and Mitre were one thing though.....quiet. Granted its getting light in Hanbury, and there were windows from lots of neighbors that looked down into that yard....as did ..is he PC or Detective? Pearce's window look directly down on Kates murder site. But both places were empty and quiet....my guess is that he wanted quiet places so he could hear of any potential trouble approaching while he worked. I think he sacrificed light for silence myself...in Mitre Square for sure.

Dutfields Yard was known for noise after 1am on meeting nights, like this one was, ...but even if the yard was empty as stated, 28 or so people could be heard singing through the upper window, and its light cast down on the cottages...in which some residents were awake, probably with candles lit.

It would have been a bad spot to start....and there were empty stalls in the back of the yard as well.

I dont see him biting at this venue....nor do I see Liz Stride is soliciting when she meets her killer.

All the best "Master" Darrell.

[Malcolm X]

he's killing in a blind area..........i.e you cant see or hear somebody comming until they're actually passing the entrance... it is only safe if you kill quickly and then shoot back into the club....but definitely not if he's planning to mutilate as well, because then he's seriously distracted inside the woman's guts, searching for his next organ.

it is also not safe to kill and mutilate there and then walk out of Dutfields ..STRAIT INTO A PATROLLING POLICEMAN .imagine bumping right into him

and you cant really stick your head around the corner and look first, just in case you're seen doing so.

it depends how smart the Ripper was, because a smart killer wouldn't mutilate there, it's simply asking for trouble...

the killer will need a panoramic field of view, so if he does see somebody comming, it'll be at range enabling him to sneak away.

but Dutfields is blind, it's like me putting an empty milk bottle on my doorstep in my birthday suit, and a bloke strolls by with his dog, you just cant see him till it's too late

[Malcolm X]

Hanbury is odd too, but that's definitely a Ripper murder; so we dont need to investigate it.

it's a dodgy area too, but not as bad as Dutfields, because in Dutfields he's got no escape route, just a policeman standing in the entrance looking at him in total and utter horror, while he's bent over the victim, hands inside her guts.

the Ripper must've realised this before going in, or noticed this whilst inside with Stride.

[Malcolm X]

in addition, to be honest; the cut to the side of her neck isn't deep enough for a large blade, yes i can argue against this and i have done on this thread already, but it can still be interpreted as another oddity......this isn't his normal initial cut.

my guess is the Ripper was watching from the crowd, but didn't kill her........enjoying every minute of it...``The Jews will get blamed for this, they'll get blamed for all the murders``.....whatever the case, i'm confident that he knew about this murder before Eddowes.

maybe.........maybe not

what time was Stride's body removed from Dutfields and taken away..........this could be crucial

[perrymason]

I think in terms of the venue he chooses, multiple ingress/egress possibilities would be great...he does have that in Mitre, 2 lanes and a carriageway, and assuming people dont come down both ends of Bucks Row at the same time, he has at least 1 there...in Hanbury if seen by neighbors he can hop the fences or try to get through the house to the street,... in Millers Court though, and in Dutfields Yard, the only real avenue out is also the only one in. Unless.......hes a member of the club and can go in the side door.

Millers Court...the most bereft of escape possibilities....and yet assumed to be the site of his most arduous and lengthy murder...with his back likely to the windows.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

I think in terms of the venue he chooses, multiple ingress/egress possibilities would be great...he does have that in Mitre, 2 lanes and a carriageway, and assuming people dont come down both ends of Bucks Row at the same time, he has at least 1 there...in Hanbury if seen by neighbors he can hop the fences or try to get through the house to the street,... in Millers Court though, and in Dutfields Yard, the only real avenue out is also the only one in. Unless.......hes a member of the club and can go in the side door.

Millers Court...the most bereft of escape possibilities....and yet assumed to be the site of his most arduous and lengthy murder...with his back likely to the windows.

Best regards all.

yes.........whatever went on that night, this Stride murder is the hardest to get your head around..all the rest you can accept, but this one; flipping heck!

it reminds me of what Ivor Edwards said to me via email....``God knows what happened that night``

it's maybe worth steering clear of this murder in too much detail and concentrating on the others.......not that doing this reveals anything either, we need a time machine

no suspect will ever be believed as the Ripper, you'll need concrete evidence and definitely no Maybrick style diary, because even if it's genuine, this still wont be enough.

[perrymason]

I know that this one is very sticky Mal, but as I said, if you remove this one and slide Ms C4 beside Ms C2....who is after Ms C1....then you have a very consistent pattern and streak.

Cheers mate.

[Malcolm X]

I know that this one is very sticky Mal, but as I said, if you remove this one and slide Ms C4 beside Ms C2....who is after Ms C1....then you have a very consistent pattern and streak.

Cheers mate.

yes, i can just about suss this out at 1.46 am yawn yawn if you remove Stride from C5 then the Ripper's M.O is more fixed, it opens up again with Kelly, but this is because he's indoors/ has far more time on his hands etc.

in my opinon Kelly is his, but there are many that say no..... it's the level of mutilation that bothers me, this tells me that something else was going on, she was mutilated like that for another reason......she looks like a hideous sacrafice, with her heart removed and taken away.............anyway, we mustn't talk about this here or we'll get told off for going off topic !

i'm going to shoot over to the Kelly thread soon, start a new one or open an existing one, i want to discuss something that i noticed earlier on, not occult related though

i cant talk about my new theory yet, because i dont have enough info

[caz]

It would have been a bad spot to start....and there were empty stalls in the back of the yard as well.

I dont see him biting at this venue....nor do I see Liz Stride is soliciting when she meets her killer.

Hi Perry,

To be fair, it would have been a bad spot to start if Jack had decided to attack any of his victims at the point of their initial encounter. I don’t see him ‘biting’ at a venue on Commercial St, the Whitechapel Rd, Aldgate or Bishopsgate either. That’s because he didn’t have to if Polly, Annie, Kate and Mary were all desperate enough to go with him to a good spot for him to finish.

If Annie had been found halfway up Commercial St, just with her throat cut, instead of extensively mutilated in a nearby backyard, it could have indicated that she hadn’t been soliciting or had refused to go off with her killer for fear of getting what Martha and Polly had got. Jack only had to assume a prospective victim was soliciting to get very worked up indeed if she had turned him down at the point of encounter.

If Dutfield’s Yard was obviously a poor choice of venue for a spot of mutilation practice, then why assume that Jack would have thought otherwise? If he came across Liz like he did the others, why would he not have assumed, from the fact that she was loitering alone outside a club, that she would be up for business like the others, and therefore happy to accompany him, just like the others, to a spot where he could ‘bite’ to his heart’s content?

If you don’t believe Liz was soliciting, have you ever stopped to think what differences that could have made to Jack’s own behaviour that night, if he sauntered along Berner St with his freshly sharpened knife, saw her standing there and fully expected her, just like the others, to saunter off with him to a suitable mutilation location?

This is so simple that it’s almost painful to watch all the twisting and turning, in order to introduce a one-off killer who had it in for Liz for reasons you can only take unsupported stabs at. If Jack saw all unfortunate women as pawns on a chess board, there is no excuse for anyone else to do so. They were individuals, and their own behaviour would have had a direct influence on what Jack would or would not have been able to do with them from any given starting point.

In short, there was nothing to stop Jack walking down Berner St at the right time to have encountered Liz. From that point on, any number of factors could easily have stood in the way of his mutilation plans and caused him to kill quickly at the point of encounter and move on. One of those factors could have been Liz herself not playing the game according to her killer's preferred rules. Fancy that - a woman with spirit.

Love,

Caz
X

[perrymason]

Hi Caz,

I think one thing that may stop that assumption is that the only male that we hear may have been in her company last was a weaving drunk who accosts her in front of witnesses.

Liz was barely a few feet inside the gate, and the location was shielded somewhat by it. We know there was noise coming out of the building, we know cottagers were awake, we know light from the second floor window shone on the cottages, we know the side door was slightly ajar...we are led to believe the yard was empty, and by Fanny Mortimers statements, she did not ever see Liz or anyone else at the gates when she was at her door off and on from 12:45am to near 1am...she doesnt state she sees Diemshutz arrive, only Goldstein at 12:55.

That means that Liz was probably in the yard after her encounter with Blotchy...if that ever occurred. If not, she was inside the yard perhaps with the man Brown saw her with. That has her almost on her murder spot near 12:46am.

Blackwell was faced with a cut that MUST have occurred no later than 1/2 hour prior to his arrival, based on Schwartz...cause Liz would still be in the street at 12:45am, or one that was made as late as 5 to 1....20 minutes before his arrival. If Brown is the witness we should be believing, the man and woman he saw are not outside the gate at 12:45 when Fanny takes her first look around from the door...but he is sure he saw Liz, so that means she is likely inside the yard out of site...based on the short time remaining for the fatal cut, as per Blackwells estimates...he had a watch.

With Brown or Schwartz the logical assumption based on Fanny and the Doc, is that Liz is in a yard that was stated as empty by members as early as 12:46am.....and by Blackwell, she is mortally wounded within 10 minutes.

There was no interruption, unless Jack decided to chat with her for 10 minutes and then cut once...there is no evidence that suggests Jack the Ripper ever set out just to kill people or would be satisfied by only that, there is evidence that suggests she may have been cut while falling, that she was in the yard for as much as 14 minutes before being found by Diemshutz pulling in....and there is absolutely no evidence the victim was moved or even touched after her throat cut.

I know you and many folks like to see Jack as a Mr Potatoe Head..he just changes what he does arbitrarily like kids can change Potatoe Head's features. One day he kills falling woman with a single slice...another day he kills the woman in bed, and empties the body.

Without a Potatoe Head killer, or Liz Stride as a Canonical, there are 3 women that met their killer, and their death, in strikingly similar fashion. Each had the same essential signatures, the regional mutilation focus, and perhaps were committed consecutively...without Liz.

Maybe Jack didnt want to play in gore like Millers Court, maybe he did like and desire to kill outside....maybe he wasnt going to start a kill at a location he obviously knows will not allow for secure postmortem mutilations.

Its ironic Caz that my arguments are based on a premise of a specific kind of killer, and yours are based on one that seemingly has no kinds of preferences at all...when you consider that the legend of Jack the Ripper is about a man that was indeed specific and focussed....on ripping womens abdomens open,.. not dispatching them in piecework, or merely slitting a throat.

Best regards Caz

[Jon Guy]

I think one thing that may stop that assumption is that the only male that we hear may have been in her company last was a weaving drunk who accosts her in front of witnesses.

There is nothing to suggest BS man knew Schwartz was behind him, Mike, and Schwartz didn`t notice Pipeman until he had crossed the road, and as he was drunk too...

[perrymason]

There is nothing to suggest BS man knew Schwartz was behind him, Mike, and Schwartz didn`t notice Pipeman until he had crossed the road, and as he was drunk too...

True Jon, but the suggestion being made is that he killed Liz after that altercation...when he knew he was seen by two men with the soon to be dead woman.

If we consider that by melding all relevant pre-murder data we likely have Liz in the yard no later than 12:46am...with or without Schwartz or Brown for that matter...using only the PC then Fannys accounts, and that means the "opportunity" to kill and mutilate is easily within his grasp....based on Polly and Kates speedy actions.

Which means, to explain away the lack of mutilations Jack would either have to have waited for 5-10 minutes before starting to even kill her....or to have arrived closer to 12:56am from out of nowhere and cut her right away...then being stopped by the pony.

The first probability in my opinion is farcical, the second can only be validated by the presence of evidence that suggests acts were halted or incomplete. In this case, she isnt even on her back, let alone any evidence that would suggest she was being prepped for organ donation.

Cheers Jon