If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Malcolm X]

yes i was enjoying a joke ......... but now i'm fed up, i'm trying to find a good map of DORSET ST......from above, not a photo, i need to retrace kelly's movements, i cannot find it quickly on the web and now i've got to go out, this really annoys me. been searching for half an hour

[Sam Flynn]

Believe me when I say that Schwartzs continence is as far from my interests as can be....but from Websters you get the following...

Never mind Websters Dictionary, Mike - I'm talking about the literary use of the construct "to flee incontinently" in 1880s England, and I'm right in this context. It means "to run unrestrainedly". The correct - or longhand - medical term is "urinary incontinence". The word "incontinence" on its own hasn't always meant wetting (or soiling) oneself. Indeed, it still doesn't - you can still read of people being "incontinent with rage", for example - which just means they're furious, not that they're so angry they've wet themselves.

Cheers gents.

"Gents"!!! You must mean "men's toilets"

[Sam Flynn]

i'm trying to find a good map of DORSET ST......from above, not a photo, i need to retrace kelly's movements

Why would you want to do that in the context of a Liz Stride thread?

[c.d.]

Speaking of pit stops....I wonder if Jack might have gotten Liz into the yard at which point she decided that she would like to use the facilities before getting down to business. That would knock off a few minutes of time and also give Jack a chance to have second thoughts about what he had gotten himself into. He might have decided the best course of action would be to kill her and then get out of there asap.

It seem we are so focused on the mutilations that we forget that Jack might have gotten off big time just with the thrill of the kill.

c.d.

[DVV]

Speaking of pit stops....I wonder if Jack might have gotten Liz into the yard at which point she decided that she would like to use the facilities before getting down to business. That would knock off a few minutes of time and also give Jack a chance to have second thoughts about what he had gotten himself into. He might have decided the best course of action would be to kill her and then get out of there asap.

It seem we are so focused on the mutilations that we forget that Jack might have gotten off big time just with the thrill of the kill.

c.d.

Hi cd,
that's a possible scenario, and from a general point of view, I find your last sentence so right.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

It seem we are so focused on the mutilations that we forget that Jack might have gotten off big time just with the thrill of the kill.

In which case we might as well ascribe any East End murder of that period to him, CD. Ultimately, we must stick with the facts before us - and, on what we "know" about Jack, the idea of his having killed Stride must remain speculative.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

You are right but I was referring specifically to Liz. The point that I was trying to make was that Jack would have preferred to be able to mutilate her but didn't fancy being caught. Some thrill was better than none at all.

c.d.

[DVV]

In which case we might as well ascribe any East End murder of that period to him, CD. Ultimately, we must stick with the facts before us - and, on what we "know" about Jack, the idea of his having killed Stride must remain speculative.

I see your point, Sam, but the fact that the mutilations are the distinctive mark of the WM doesn't exclude the "thrill to kill" dimension.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

I was referring specifically to Liz. The point that I was trying to make was that Jack would have preferred to be able to mutilate her but didn't fancy being caught. Some thrill was better than none at all.

That's a double speculation worthy of the Double Event, CD! Firstly, that a comparatively superficial cut would have constituted much of a "thrill" for Jack; Secondly, that Jack was her killer at all

[c.d.]

That comparatively superficial cut as you call it, Sam was enought to kill her was it not?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

That comparatively superficial cut as you call it, Sam was enought to kill her was it not?

Oh, it was, CD. Dr Blackwell confirmed that she slowly bled to death - in stark contrast to the other Ripper victims.

[c.d.]

I'm sorry, Sam but I just can't buy the whole different cut argument. Liz was a prostitute and she had her throat cut as opposed to being shot or beaten with a baseball bat. There are just too many varibles in play. Did Jack have the exact same grip on the knife as before? Was his victim at exactly the same angle as before? Did she fight back more than the others? Did her scarf affect how he made his cut? Could he have slipped or been off balance as he made his move? In any event, he accomplished his purpose.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Other prostitutes have had their throats cut, CD - indeed, other prostitutes had their throats cut during the Whitechapel Murder series. Not all of them may be attributed to Jack.

As to angles, grips, etc... bear in mind that Jack had already dispatched at least two previous victims with ruthless efficiency, and with very deep and extensive throat wounds. I find it hard to believe that he'd have botched up this one, to the extent where he didn't even fully penetrate the vessels on the left side of Stride's neck. Having done that, why didn't he continue to do a proper job? It was only going to take a further couple of seconds to inflict another cut and - as we saw in previous murders - he wasn't averse to using a "double-cut" approach.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Thanks for addressing that earlier issue fully Sam, ......I didnt doubt you.

I also agree with you on the recent exchanges....cd if you are looking to include Liz based on the proficiency of the throat cut as relates to ones that very nearly severed the head from the body,... I would think thats actually another factor to use to rule him out rather than include him.

In this murder there was time for a killer to mutilate her, based on evidence both witness and medical...there was an alledged empty yard to do it in, based on statements, and there is an Unfortunate stray in the form of Liz Stride right where he would want her at 12:45pm.....oh yeah, and also a drunk man who walked down the street swaying, and who it appears was rough with her in front of 2 witnesses as soon as he encountered her.

Very recently Ive begun to think that James Browns encounter at around 12:45 might have been the one that really matters here....and that the contemporary police thought that as well. And Brown is not a club member, for sure. Is Schwartz's account as much as mentioned in the Inquest? And we have the luxury of Brown being able to speak about his sighting and the fact he is still in the area when he hears the screams of the club members seeking police.

Best regards all.

[DVV]

Perhaps Jack had already realized, as he slashed her throat, that he had better leave the spot quickly (because of Schwartz? Diemshutz?). Hence this less severe cut.