If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[perrymason]

Tom,

The method the killer used is that he was right handed and her body weight on the blade may have assisted the cuts depth. She may have been cut while falling, perhaps held from behind with her scarf.

If thats the case, not only the cut itself but the position of the victim when cut isnt Jacks "signature" at all. 3 throat slitting murders in one night doesnt make them all one man, as we can see on the Triple event night....neither does a comfortable walking distance between sites constitute a single killer. One woman was gutted and had abdominal mutilation focus, one was killed.

All the best Tom.

[Malcolm X]

Hi David,



I fully realize that if I abandon Schwartz, Browns story could easily be seen as a pick up of an Unfortunate....but I suppose the real story is what I want here, not just for the killer not to be Jack.

Best regards David.

this Brown suspect is interesting though........ long coat and medium build, also unlike BS; he's being friendly to Liz.

[DVV]

Hi Mike,
thanks for your reply about Brown. Interesting, indeed. Though I wouldn't dismiss Schwartz' story. Our Hungarian fled cowardly, Mike. How could he dare to confess this, had he seen nothing ?
And btw, I think he vaguely said that the two men could be together in order to make his escape a bit less pitiful.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,
thanks for your reply about Brown. Interesting, indeed. Though I wouldn't dismiss Schwartz' story. Our Hungarian fled cowardly, Mike. How could he dare to confess this, had he seen nothing ?
And btw, I think he vaguely said that the two men could be together in order to make his escape a bit less pitiful.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Hi David,

It is troubling, but perhaps in the eyes of the clubmen,... if Schwartz fabricated the detail about Liz being accosted outside the gates and even the time that he saw the minor fracas, because it was advantageous to the club in that format,.... he would look like a hero in the eyes of the only people he likely cares about, his peers, fellow Socialist Jews.

I havent patched the holes that I see in the change of allegiance to Browns account and time, but I am sensing that in the murder of the woman in a Jewish Socialist/Anarchist organizations yard that it was a particularly dangerous event for all Jewish people there. Financially, spiritually. The club would have been closed in a second if we had club witnesses that the woman was killed in front of other club members in that yard...by a meeting attendee. The fact that she isnt mutilated might well have been part of the problem for them, because she is not clearly a victim of the Ripper.

Remember the very early Union years? When they hired thugs to man picket lines, or act as "security" at meetings or rallies? Would an Anarchist club, known by authorities and responsible for printing Socialist propaganda onsite act similarly?

Im beginning to wonder what made the horse shy...people or a body behind the gate and by the wall...and if Schwartz's failed attempt to write the records according to his account, and Goldsteins story...both translated for them, were efforts to do club damage control. They couldnt move her...so something had to be constructed that included her being there WITHOUT a club member, and with none around.

When Goldstein walks by, witnessed, at 12:55...by Blackwells estimates to the minute, Liz must be cut within one minute for him to be accurate, or already cut. She and killer almost had to be there. If he saw a lone man, not from the club, over her or killing her in an empty yard, he would cause the club no harm by saying so. I feel he must have seen something or some people...Fanny says he walked hurriedly past after looking up at the club...to do so he would have had to look back, over his right shoulder...the club second window, or the top floor, wouldnt be at a 90 angle from his place in front of the gates.

He has a gladstone type bag full of empty cigarette cartons at 12:55am, and he is outside the gates of a yard of a club he belongs to that is open and active, and that has cigarette makers in cottages who stated they were awake. I think something he saw changed his mind about bringing the bag to them in the yard.

My understanding is that Wess translated for Goldstein, and he may have done so for Schwartz...Wess is the man that runs the Arbeter Fraint, a Social revolution type publication, its in the back of that yard....and should the events details be anything but what was given by the club members onsite, he probably would have been shut down.

Im beginning to think that James Brown might be a more trustworthy source, partly because his story is the Inquest version of events at 12:45am, and that Leon Goldstein, Wess, and Schwartz may have had enough at stake to fabricate some details for the sake of the club. Wess himself may have done it in translating.

Mr Wess is the first person called at Liz Strides Inquest. Not the man that found her, the Club Steward...not the one that last saw her...not Kidney.... but Wess. The man whose statements take him off premises long before Liz is seen there, or found.

I think some lesser characters in the event are perhaps more telling stories....in particular Wess and Goldstein.

Sorry that was so long.....Ive obviously been thinking aloud so that something might pop into someone elses head based on that kind of questioning.

Again...sorry for the length. Best regards amigo.

[DVV]

Sorry that was so long.....Ive obviously been thinking aloud so that something might pop into someone elses head based on that kind of questioning.

Again...sorry for the length. Best regards amigo.

Please, Mike,
Don't worry! I'll always read your posts with pleasure.
And when I come back home a bit too hot, just like tonight, no matter, I'll have time tomorow.
Thanks to you, thanks to Glenn, I came to realize that there was something "special" in Miller"s Court, though we have never agreed so far.

Corsican blessings,
David

[perrymason]

Please, Mike,
Don't worry! I'll always read your posts with pleasure.
And when I come back home a bit too hot, just like tonight, no matter, I'll have time tomorow.
Thanks to you, thanks to Glenn, I came to realize that there was something "special" in Miller"s Court, though we have never agreed so far.

Corsican blessings,
David

Thanks David, I appreciate the thought. And that you said "so far" when referring to Millers Court....I dont know what has tickled your fancy regarding that murder from this discussion, but If you feel like sharing some ideas Id welcome the opportunity to read them.

Best regards as always.

[Malcolm X]

Hi David,


When Goldstein walks by, witnessed, at 12:55...by Blackwells estimates to the minute, Liz must be cut within one minute for him to be accurate, or already cut. She and killer almost had to be there. If he saw a lone man, not from the club, over her or killing her in an empty yard, he would cause the club no harm by saying so. I feel he must have seen something or some people...Fanny says he walked hurriedly past after looking up at the club...to do so he would have had to look back, over his right shoulder...the club second window, or the top floor, wouldnt be at a 90 angle from his place in front of the gates.

He has a gladstone type bag full of empty cigarette cartons at 12:55am, and he is outside the gates of a yard of a club he belongs to that is open and active, and that has cigarette makers in cottages who stated they were awake. I think something he saw changed his mind about bringing the bag to them in the yard.

.

It is very interesting that Goldstein noticed nothing as he walked by, and neither did Mrs Mortimer....Liz Stride MUST HAVE BEEN either inside the yard or inside the club! because Mrs Mortimer saw nothing, other than Goldstein, at this crucial time from 12.55 to 1 am.......

Stride could've been waiting quietly in the yard and Goldsein didn't notice her, But then again Mrs Mortimer saw nobody leaving the yard before Schwartz arrived.....LIZ was killed very close to 1am.....so why wasn't the killer seen, either going into DUTFIELDS or comming out

was Liz killed before Goldstein came along?.....maybe, because Mrs Mortimer and others heard the row alright.....but didn't look, because they were well used to the noise comming from that club and didn't want to get involved, so our Mrs Mortimer is telling porky pies, she was not observing the club all the time (12.30 to 1am)

but evidence shows that Stride died very close to 1am ...... this cannot be ignored.....so 12.45 to 12.53 ( goldstein 12.55), is a little bit too early

could the killer have been a club member that Liz went to see that night and he simply went back into the club........yes maybe!

the killer could've left Dutfields after Schwartz came in of course and Mrs Mortimer didn't notice it, or she was back inside her house, but this doesn't explain him not being seen going in, or him not seen inside the yard by Goldstein..........LIZ quietly on her own in there yes, but not two people in there talking or fighting, or the killer standing there waiting for Liz to die.

it could be that Stride was inside the club at 12.55, outside and killed in the yard at 12.57 with the killer going strait back in..... now this makes sene

this that Perrymason mentions is quite important, i think we have a real problem here, or have i missed something else.....i could've done i suppose, because it's pretty late right now!

[perrymason]

Hi Mal,

Just to be sure you are following along the logic trail that Im trying to leave here;

Some key points:

-Blackwell arrived at 1:16, and stated that he felt the cut was perhaps 20 minutes old, at the most, one half hour. That means the cut itself would have to be made by 12:56am
-Fanny doesnt see Liz in any visits to her door prior to the sighting of Leon Goldstein, and she was at the door off and on from 12:45 until 1am.
-Goldstein-club member-translated statement by William Wess on Tuesday Night.. editor/owner of the Arbeter Fraint Socialist periodical produced in Dutfields Yard. Wess may also have translated for Schwartz.
-The yard that was stated by club members as empty from 12:40 when Eagle comes into the yard after Lave goes to his cottage, yet often was known to have noise emanating from the yard past 1am on Saturday meeting nights. One witness described some of the the late hour yard occupants as "low men"
-Goldstein had a bag full of empty cigarette cartons, and is at 12:55 outside the gates of a club he belongs to where cigarette makers lived and worked. They were awake at the time of the event, by their own accounts. Yet Fanny says he looked up at the club as he walked hurriedly by the open gates. To do so he would have to look slightly behind himself, over his right shoulder. In the direction of the club, and into some of the space that was hidden by the opened gate as he walks by.
-Wess, not the man that found the deceased, owned the property, dated the deceased, saw the deceased last, the surgeon that examined her...is the first person called to the stand. Look at any Inquest and youll note only THE most relevant testify first....why is Wess in that position? He stated he had left the grounds long before the murder must have occurred

All these little bits of circumstantial evidence, including the fact in my opinion that Liz must have been either lying there or still with the killer when Goldstein passes by yet he saw nothing...are making me start to feel at least a few elements of all their stories may have been designed to deflect suspicion from the club or its members, not to accurately represent what witnesses saw.

I think some club members may have witnessed the killing while also in that yard at the time, or that Diemshutz and gang when first examining the predicament created the "empty yard" story, and later Schwartz'z altercation off the property that preceded it. And then again Tuesday night when Goldstein walked in to say via translator that he saw nothing.

Liz was virtually dead or being killed when Goldstein passes...if he looked back over his right shoulder towards the club, he may have seen partially behind the open gate.

Its very possible her killer was there with her at that time.

Something just seems too convenient to me....all known club witnesses saw or heard nothing. All of them. And anyone that was in the yard said it was empty...including a statement from Lave and Eagle that has them in the yard at the exact same time, 12:40am, with neither seeing or hearing the other.

And once again....really long,... sorry.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

hi Micheal

yes you and i have noticed this...........but you noticed this first and i went through my Ripper books late last night.

this crucial time is 12.40 to 1am, i think we have to break this down into key points:-

1.......Stride was not around from about 12.40 to 1 am
2.......nobody else was seen in the vacinity, only Goldstein at 12.55
3.......Mrs Mortimer saw nothing....from 12.30 to 1am

speculation:-

Mrs Mortimer said she was observing this location from 12.30 to 1am, but she saw no Schwartz/BS ....or heard any noise, so what is going on...did he witness this at 12.28, or did Mrs Mortimer shoot back indoors for 5 mins and miss it all!

whatever the case, nothing was observed at this later crucial time of 12.40 to 1am...and this needs addressing

for the Ripper to escape, he probably left Dutfields after Diemschultz arrived, or waited and snaked his way out through the crowd/ melted into the crowd......he was very lucky indeed, or Mrs Mortimer wasn't there all the time/ Godstein time was maybe out too.

but we still have the huge problem of Stride not being seen at all.....NOT SEEN AT ALL................NOT SEEN AT ALL so good i named it twice!

I have to say that it looks like she was in the club.

we have a huge problem with this murder...i just cant see a way out to explain anything, it looks like it's not a Ripper murder.

but we just so happen to have Eddowes later on and the graffiti too, with a direct reference to the JEWS etc etc ... so the Ripper was out and about and close by, is this sheer coincidence?... not sure.

because if you say that the Ripper did not write the graffiti, then what does it mean without any frame of reference, because it means nothing on its own........but definitely means something in combination with the bloody cloth and i doubt that he found the chalk lieing in the filty streets either, in near pitch blackness, it looks like he had it in his pocket when he left home

i notice this thread has gone quiet yes, other members here might not be able to explain this Stride murder either, this is like the Marie Celeste!

my hunch is that the Ripper still killed her, but by God i have no idea how he did it...if not the Ripper, then he was either innocently walking by, or heard about this far off and went to the murder scene and stood amongst the crowd.... if so, the killer would have been a club member and all of this is a ``cover up``

i'm very shaky on this last 20 mins from 12.40 to 1am, i'm skating on thin ice and could be missing something.

i never noticed any of this over the last 6 years.. or more likely, i noticed it and chose to ignore it!

i would say that Stride is definitely only 50:50 the Ripper and should not really be in the C5 and if somebody disagrees.. then please post in your views!

[perrymason]

Hi Malcolm,

I think that youre asking yourself the right questions, I suggest let the possible answers dictate whether this is really a viable Ripper murder. Its often the solving of a single loose piece of the puzzle that leads investigators to re-visit earlier evidence and thoughts regarding crimes.

Liz is last seen at 12:45am, one sighting has her by the wall of the school, with a man leaning on the wall with one arm, talking to her. One is a Jewish man, a possible club member, who says he saw a confrontation with Liz and Broadshouldered Man just outside the gates at the same time.

Both stories have Liz in the vicinity with a possible suspect, on the surface, it appears only James Browns suspect could be Ripper-like, he isnt drunk, and he may be trying to pick her up.

The crux for me is that Israel Schwartz's story isnt mentioned at the Inquest, he wasnt called to get on record with his story, and James Brown was.

If Israels story is fabricated at all.....why? Was he wrong about the time, maybe....was he wrong about the woman being Liz...the only other woman mentioned near the scene is a part of a young couple seen in the area. Maybe.

But it is sure an important story for the club members...it has the dead woman first meeting her likely killer outside the yard. So does Browns, but who says they knew anything about Browns sighting when Schwartz comes in.

I have a feeling that a mistake was made by the club in creating an empty yard, witnessed altercation outside the gates, and a witness at 12:55 that saw or heard nothing as he passed the gates when its almost certain Liz was lying behind the right one at the time, perhaps with her killer.

If they had known Brown would provide an offsite meeting with the victim too, they could have just said no-one saw anything.

Instead we have club witnesses in the same yard at the same time that dont see each other, a witness who claims fear of blood but who tumbled down the stairs to see the ghastly site, and a victim that may actually have been waiting for someone inside the yard or club, by her position in the BSM story. And a club witness that walks right past the scene at 12:55am...when its almost certain Liz is lying there, and a real possibility the killer is still there.

Think of those bruises on her upper chest by her shoulders, then think of the guy leaning on the wall with one arm...maybe blocking her path. Would hard pokes with a finger cause the bruising? Was she being warned, threatened or intimidated? Or picked up?

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

yes, BROWN is the guy i confused with BS over his long coat a few days ago.

the key to this riddle is Goldstein/ Mrs Mortimer..........either Goldstein didn't look hard enough into the yard/ too dark inside for a quick glance, or Mrs Mortimer shot inside for 5 mins.

maybe Stride was killed at 12. 48, but this contradicts blood still flowing and all estimates of her time of death etc etc!

the big mystery is Goldstein walking past and noticing nothing, but maybe as said, he was walking way too fast with his eyes fixated in front of him.

maybe Stride/ the killer were further back in the yard and not talking at the very moment that Goldstein walked by..... but she was there to meet somebody because she had breath fresheners in her hand, or had just met someone, it must have been in that yard or just inside the club door and definitely a quiet meeting.

but the ripper has to walk to Dutfields first, this is not Star Trek and ``beam me down Scottie`` but nobody was seen strolling around in that vacinity at this later time.......... only at 12.45 and this is the time that Stride vanished!

i'm not happy with this murder, because if it's the Ripper, it looks like he killed at 12.48......................but if it's not the Ripper and Liz was killed nearer the time that everyone estimates, then a club member.

now then, if the Ripper killed at 12.48 why have we no mutilations? because Goldstein didn't come along till 7 mins later.

and dont tell me that the Ripper was in that yard for 10 mins with Stride before killing her, way too risky.

and all the time we're thinking about this, we have Mrs Mortimer close by seeing nothing......i'm not happy with this murder at all, have we missed something Michael......... i dont think so.

it's either a total **** up with regards to the times/ totally unreliable witnesses or the killer was a club member.

the Stride murder is more like Jack than TABRAM, because of the coincidence of the double event/ method of killing etc etc........ but i still have grave doubts......... my guess is Jack heard about this murder, and watched from the crowd.

was Jack at Dutfields that night? ALMOST DEFINITELY........but maybe not as the killer, the coincidence/GSG is way too strong in my opinion....he is refering to the Stride murder, but maybe saying ``look at the Stride murder location, The Jews will be blamed for everything now``

[Sam Flynn]

One is a Jewish man, a possible club member, who says he saw a confrontation with Liz and Broadshouldered Man

Note the subliminal advertising!

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Note the subliminal advertising!

His Eminence once again adds nothing.That is pathetic.
"Casebook Supporter"-nope!

[Malcolm X]

i do have to say that when you go to all the effort of posting in, it's a bit frustrating to get no decent replies; just Michael and myself...yet that ``Hutch signature`` thread keeps going on and on, achieving nothing

[perrymason]

To my eye there are at least 2 Canonical Murders where a witness is present at some point when the actual murder or the attack or the body, could be seen from a correct vantage point.

Goldstein, and PC Harvey. Both men... if as there statements indicate, were where they were when they said they were there...then they were feet away from a murder happening or just being finished, and in Harveys case, should have been able to actually see it. Its unclear with Liz being behind the gate how far north you would have to be in that gate opening, to see back into that space.

With that in mind, why doesnt Goldstein come in immediately when he learns of the murder, or murders? He comes in Tuesday night..the women died Sunday morning. Funnily enough, John Kelly doesnt come in to ID Kate until then either. Seems the claim they slept almost every night together is a lie, or he sleeps so well he assumes shes in bed beside him....when shes been dead for 2 nights.

The timing says it all....at best, Sailor man has 9 minutes to get Kate into the square, do his normal thing and more, and be gone before Watkins enters.

If Blackwell had the estimate correct on the length of time that had elapsed between Liz's cut and his arrival, then Liz is either already cut or being so when Goldstein passes the open gates.

Cheers all.