If Liz Had Been Mutilated

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mrs Long...oh sorry, Darrell....,

The police interviewed every man on site, checked boots and hands and cuffs for blood, spoke with the cottagers, and searched the premises. I believe they expected to find a connection to her murder on someone there...the club was not highly regarded by the Police.

If you take into account Fanny, who says she was at her door off and on from around 12:45 until 1am and only saw Goldstein walk past at 12:55....you have support for Schwartz, cause he and Pipeman are not seen by Fanny at that time, and you have to assume that the victim is out of sight because she is in the yard. Shes found dead there minutes later, it makes sense that she was in the yard after Schwartz left.

Now, is she in there with BSM, or Jack? Cause it doesnt look like they were one and the same... by his drunken entry and witnessed skirmish with someone he will soon kill. And in doesnt appear as if Liz was certainly killed by Jack...something we have no issue assuming about Polly. Annie and Kate....so, my money is on BSM in the yard with Liz.

Or in Clue Format......its the brute Broadshouldered Man, in the yard, with his knife.

Best regards Mrs D

Broadshoulders didn't notice Schwartz till he had passed by, but before that he had already pulled Stride OUT of the gateway and onto the ground.........not into the gateway and he wasn't carrying a knife either.

therefore he was doing exacty the opposite to what the killer did...and Broadshoulders didn't even know Schwartz was there..

if Broadshoulders was the killer, wouldn't he have been trying to pull Stride INTO Dutfields........

why was he pulling her away from the yard.......was this a jealous ex-lover !

she would've been very pised off with Broadshoulders, so why was she found with breath fresheners in her hand.....not for him that's for sure, she had them in her hand for someone else who came along later on!

[Sam Flynn]

if Broadshoulders was the killer, wouldn't he have been trying to pull Stride INTO Dutfields........

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

[perrymason]

I would challenge the idea that almost all the important witnesses were clubmen. The most important witnesses (in no particular order) were James Brown, Fanny Mortimer, Diemschutz, Morris Eagle, and Schwartz. Of those 5 only two are known clubmen.

As for Mike's contention that there's no evidence the Ripper had anything to do with Stride's murder, I suppose that depends on which evidence you choose to evaluate and how.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

More fairly put.....James Brown is only worthwhile if Schwartz was mistaken on time, or lied, they have the same times in their stories, with 2 decidedly different encounters...Fanny Mortimer can only have seen the area sporadically between 12:45 and 1am based on her words, she is most valuable for what she didnt see, and Goldstein...Diemshutz finds the woman, and hes the Club Steward,.. Eagle was the guest speaker and likely a member and the last one to state the condition of the yard as empty, and Schwartz is a Jew outside a Socialist Jewish club, with a ridiculous explanation for being there at 12:45am. Goldsteins pass is almost to the minute the end of the time of Blackwells cut estimate...the time it was completed, and most of the club is around the gates and the body when the cops arrive.

Diemshutz, Mrs D, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave, are all connected with the club....so is Goldstein, and Schwartz may well have been as well. And Diemshutz and Eagle call out "another" victim has been murdered, suggesting that the single wound was a signature of sorts for the Ripper killer at large. Which was, and is, nonsense. And lest we not forget the 28 or so men that were still there.

As for Ripper evidence, if a single cut is indicative of a Jack the Ripper murder, one that may have been made while the victim fell...then you got me. Hes obviously guilty.

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

no, not with breath fresheners in her hand too.... because if she saw him returning, she'd make sure she had nothing in her hands, in anticipation of another fight, she'd either let go of them, or put them in her clothing, if she saw him returning at range!

plus pulling her into the street is very odd behaviour for a killer anyway, more like pull her into cover so nobody can see, dont forget that he didn't know anyone was watching.

why would he return to foolishly kill her, if Schwartz had such a good look at him, he walked right past......... dont forget Pipeman accomplice or not, he was there too.

these points i raise are very important..

[Sam Flynn]

Diemshutz, Mrs D, Kozebrodski, Eagle, Lave, are all connected with the club....so is Goldstein

Indeed, Mike - they were in and out of it (or simply "in", in Mrs D's case). Given that they were club members and the body was found on club premises - irrespective of how it got there - it's hardly surprising that they were key witnesses to what happened after the body was discovered. By the same reasoning, we should all be deeply suspicious of John Davis, PC Watkins and Harry Bowyer.

and Schwartz may well have been as well.

Not sure he was - he sounds a bit of a jessie to me, Mike. That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.

[perrymason]

Nothing stopping him from doing that after she'd refused to come with him into the street, and the other witnesses had scarpered, Mal.

Nice to see someone else point out the obvious in this case.....thanks for that Sam.

If Fanny didnt see Liz or Broadshoulders, and Schwartz's story is credible, with the altercation happening outside the gates, or even in the yard,...then Liz is likely in there. If BSM isnt with her, he may have left between Fannys visits to her door.

Which is fine....technically, he could have slit her throat at 12:46 inside the yard and left....that meets the medical estimates requirements.

My hunch is that after killing Liz, he went into the club via the yard entrance, and was let out the Berner Street door as the crowd gathered at the gates, and headed in the opposite direction. They locked it behind him....which makes the claim of the locked door at 12:40 by Eagle powerful...if its locked, no-one left via that door unless let out or having it locked behind him. With no-one leaving via the front door, and no-one in the yard, then how could they pin this on a clubman? As an aside, I dont think Eagle found the front door locked at 12:40, I think he went in via the yard to see if someone was there...maybe waiting for him. Maybe someone was, and hearing hed be back out soon, stepped outside the gates to wait there. Or, waited right there and was accosted while doing so.

Best regards Gareth, as always.

[Malcolm X]

Nice to see someone else point out the obvious in this case.....thanks for that Sam.

.

not the obvious at all........but instead, quite a foolish thing to do, Schwartz walked right past him

[DVV]

That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.

Ouah!
Sam at his top level.
EX-CE-LLENT!

Thanks Sam, I had a bad day, and almost forgot it!

[perrymason]

.... That "incontinent fleeing" from a man armed with a pipe doesn't sound like the behaviour of a working-class socialist agitator somehow.

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the dead woman and the river of blood. The incontinence line on Schwartz is almost assuredly literary license anyway....hes only what, 30?

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

Cheers Sam

[perrymason]

not the obvious at all........but instead, quite a foolish thing to do, Schwartz walked right past him

You missed the context completely, if Liz wasnt seen there when Fanny is by her door, she was almost certainly already in the yard.

Cheers

[Malcolm X]

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the woman and the river of blood. The incontinence line is almost assuredly literary license anyway.

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

Cheers Sam

i definitely agree that she was waiting there for someone, i always have....but did Broadshoulders know that too and try to drag her away from Dutfields in a jealous rage....did he return to kill her or did he clear off due to being seen ?

[perrymason]

i definitely agree that she was waiting there for someone, i always have....but did Broadshoulders know that too and try to drag her away from Dutfields in a jealous rage....did he return to kill her or did he clear off due to being seen ?

Hows this...BSM is in the yard with some other men, maybe a Pipesmoking Man, and Liz is just inside the gates. Eagle sees her, tells her hell be right out, and when he goes inside Schwartz is leaving via the yard and sees BSM try to take Liz ..out of the yard, and into the street. She pulls back, falls, BSM scowls at Schwartz and he and Pipeman leave, as BSM helps her up.

"How bout you fix me up before your little friend gets back Missy?" Insults, pushes, ....shoulder bruises, she turns to leave the yard and....

Best regards

[Malcolm X]

You missed the context completely, if Liz wasnt seen there when Fanny is by her door, she was almost certainly already in the yard.

Cheers

NO, i was answering directly about BS............but where was Stride as you say?

well she was probably waiting further inside the yard, waiting for someone to come out.... but BS might have left for good....or returned to kill her, or the Ripper jumped in because he was watching all of this from range, which is what he was good at.

i have a big problem with BS killing Stride realising he was seen by Schwartz

[Sam Flynn]

Nor does a statement that a person who was afraid of blood explain why he "tumbled down the stairs pell-mell" to see the dead woman and the river of blood.

That's the statement of someone who rushed down the stairs to see a bloody corpse - a rather stoic act under the circumstances.

The incontinence line on Schwartz is almost assuredly literary license anyway....hes only what, 30?

"Incontinence", in this sense, means "lack of restraint", Mike - as in "incontinent with rage/fear" - it doesn't mean he Cadoched himself! It means that he legged it out of the way as fast as he could.

Was this woman waiting for Eagle?

She might have been waiting for an Eagle, but ended up with a Bogey by the sound of things

[Malcolm X]

Hows this...BSM is in the yard with some other men, maybe a Pipesmoking Man, and Liz is just inside the gates. Eagle sees her, tells her hell be right out, and when he goes inside Schwartz is leaving via the yard and sees BSM try to take Liz ..out of the yard, and into the street. She pulls back, falls, BSM scowls at Schwartz and he and Pipeman leave, as BSM helps her up.

Insults, pushes, ....shoulder bruises, she turns to leave the yard and....

Best regards

"How bout you fix me up before your little friend gets back Missy?" i like that

this Stride murder is a nightmare