Tom writes:
"Seriously, though. We work with what we have, and my case exonerating Kidney is a million times stronger than any case attempting to put him in Dutfield's Yard.
Equally, the case for Stride as a Ripper victim is far and away mucho weightier than the case for her being some random one-off."
No. And no. And thatīs another example of working from what we have.
The best,
Fisherman
Why Did the BS Man Try to Pull Liz into the Street?
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Guest repliedOriginally posted by c.d. View PostI got this from Wiki. According to Schwartz, Liz was standing in the gateway of the yard when she was approached by the BS man. He spoke to her and then tried to pull her into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway. I had always been under the impression that Schwartz had arrived during the altercation, not before. Which is the correct version?
Then the question is why did he try to pull her into the street and not the yard? This does sound like the BS man knew her for it would appear that this all transpired very quickly.
Also, if Liz was waiting for someone, the gate would be a good place to stand. "I'll be waiting at the gate."
c.d.
I think that Liz declined, that she is in her nice evening wear according to her lodgemate, that she is wearing fresh maidenfern and flowers on her breast, and that she is found holding items to sweeten ones breath...indicate she may well have been waiting for someone in the club.
I have a personal favourite for that guy too....and I think he may have talked with her briefly before going in the yard for the side door.
In his statement he says he is afraid of the sight of blood, but nonetheless tumbled down the stairs "pell-mell" when word was given that a woman was found dead inside the gates...with her blood running down the gutter.
I dont believe someone who is scared of blood runs to see slit throats and blood streams....so why else might he be hurrying?
Remember....these are all young guys. Not old frightened yarmulke wearing Socialists.
....and they yell "another woman" has been killed when its the first murder that night. Cover-up.
Best regards all.Last edited by Guest; 03-12-2009, 10:13 PM.
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Originally posted by FishermanThere is absolutely no way, however, that you or anybody else can tell the posters out here that Kidney in no way resembled BS man.
Seriously, though. We work with what we have, and my case exonerating Kidney is a million times stronger than any case attempting to put him in Dutfield's Yard.
Equally, the case for Stride as a Ripper victim is far and away mucho weightier than the case for her being some random one-off.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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No, you canīt grow an enormous moustache in a day or two - but you can make a misjudgement in a split second, due to a great number of factors: subliminal identification processes being one such thing, and as prosaic a phenomenon as shadows being another.
There is absolutely no way, however, that you or anybody else can tell the posters out here that Kidney in no way resembled BS man. The description of BS man is extremely lacking in detail, and to assure us that the drawing of Kidney was a good one is simply useless. To state such a thing, we neeed to compare it to that Kidney photo that does not exist.
And if we turn things around, what we have on BS man is that he had a full face, fair skin, broad shoulders, a small brown moustache and dark hair (if I remember it correctly).
And Kidney? Since the drawing (which we donīt know if it was good or not - we are left with guesswork) shows him from the side, we canīt tell if he had a full face. Nor can we tell if he had broad shoulders. His hair seems to have been neither fair nor dark, so that gives very little, he DID seemingly (itīs NOT a photo, itīs a drawing) have a big moustache, but we canīt tell how correct Schwartz got the assesment of BS mans ditto. They both were caucasian men, obviously.
Now, how you can come up with the assertion that there were no likeness at all between the two from this thin a material is beyond me. A little more care should be taken, unless we want to deceive posters out here, and we donīt .
Do we...?
The best,
FishermanLast edited by Fisherman; 03-12-2009, 09:59 PM.
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Hi Tom,
Do you know what Viagra and DisneyWorld have in common? An hour wait for a two minute ride.
c.d.
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True dat, CD. Reminds me of the time I got a viagra stuck in my throat....had a stiff neck for a week.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View PostWe have a description of both men and a good drawing of Kidney from the inquest. He sported a giant moustache, whereas BS Man did not. Even Sy Sperling couldn't grow a moustache that fast.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
c.d.
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We have a description of both men and a good drawing of Kidney from the inquest. He sported a giant moustache, whereas BS Man did not. Even Sy Sperling couldn't grow a moustache that fast.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Tom Wescott writes, about Michael Kidney: "He in no way resembled BS Man"
...and I think it is only fair to point out that Tom has been very ungenerous to the rest of us, since he obviously has a photo of BS man stacked away, showing exactly how he looked, just as he has another photo of Kidney, providing the same services.
Without these assets, it is of course kind of daft to make the sort of assertion that Tom did in that post of his. But I think we can rely on him coming up with the goods, showing that he has known all along - eh, Tom?
The best,
Fisherman
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Michael Kidney wasn't Liz's killer. He in no way resembled BS Man or Pipeman (assuming one of them killed Liz), had an alibi for the murder, was clearly devastated by her death, and had no qualms about appearing in public (in front of potential witnesses) at the inquest. How one can overcome all of this and say he is more likely to have killed Liz than a man we KNOW to have been in the area killing women THAT SAME HOUR will never make sense to me.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. Had she been murdered on a different night than Eddowes, she likely would have been mutilated. Having said that, even without mutilations, she would have been investigated as a potential Ripper victim.
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Hi all.
I think on the whole I'm leaning to Liz not being a victim of the Ripper. Though obviously none of us can ever say for sure.
I first read about the Ripper in the late 90's after working at The Royal London Hospital. Like many others I expect, the nickname JTR was familiar to me, though I knew nothing of the crimes. I can't remember the book I read but it didn't question the possibility of Liz not being a ripper victim, so neither did I. After reading all the contributions on here, i am now sceptical. I think If Catherine Eddowes hadn't been murdered on the same night, then her candidacy as ripper victim may have not even arisen.
For Jack to use a different MO on Liz and then return to type for Catherine seems a bit unlikely for me. Plus, I think Jack was probably hanging around on the fringes of the city as he knew there was a higher police and viglilante prescence in the Whitechapel are. Plus he knew there were plenty of prostitues around St Botolph's anyway. I think he may have also gone out earlier as he expected police etc for him to strike later.
All this is speculation of course, but I think it's more likely that Liz wasn't a Ripper victim
One question though- if Kidney was Liz's killer, I presume he is a gentile, so that makes it likely that Schwartz wasn't Anderson's witness doesn't it?
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What I think was happening is that JTR needed his victims as much as they needed him. 29 Hanbury was right around the corner from where Annie lived. Annies bed # was 29. She may have used #29 to signify to the other working girls that she was going to stake a claim to 29 Hanbury as her own private boudoir.
Whatever happened Jack and Annie made it to the backyard without alerting anyone when nearly as soon as the body is discovered the "trampling" awakes Harriett Hardiman and causes Amelia Richardson to send her grandson down to see what the fuss was about.
It must have been Baileys men in the passage then. So this indicates to me that there was at least some sort of stealth going on concerning Annie and Jack through the passage. Perhaps even during Jacks escape. He probably didnt run into any walls or trip or make any untoward noises during his escape. That kind of stuff does happen. The Ripper unfamiliar with the hallway having just killed and mutilated Annie is now going to have to walk down the hall in the dark. He probably had been down the hallway a few times with Annie prior. He was probably aware enough after what he did to Annie to quietly walk down the hall and escape.
With MJK we know she leads him to her room. We know she must be terrified as everyone else is of JTR. Yet JTR is able to fool her until the very last second.
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Hello, Lord-Z...thanks for the reply.
Allow me to do some 'splaining here...
1. Tabram's murder ( regardless of whether it was a Ripper murder or not) didn't require any degree of caution on a street level,since it obviously didn't occur on the street. My view,since I tend to think less of the Guardsman-As-Killer theory that many fellow Ripperologists believe in, is that had the killer/Ripper been interrupted during the Tabram atrocity, he would have dispatched them should they have intervened. I think that Pearly Poll's saga of being with her the night preceding her murder was patently untrue and the subsequent 42 day investigation by Inspector Reid that followed based on her, and her's alone, testimony of being with two chaps out pubcrawling that came up fruitless demonstrates the saga of being a fiction on Poll's part. Therefore, I am of the opinion that Tabram was either in the act of prossing or perhaps,sleeping, on the landing when attacked by someone other than a Guardsman.
2. I likewise am not convinced that Nichols was in the act of prostitution at the time she was killed, although I certainly think she intended to obtain doss money or would have certainly acquiesced to a proposition between the time she was last seen alive and up to the eventual assault that ended her life. I base this notion or theory on the location of her murder,which was on the pavement...not in an alley.
3. Chapman is a tough one to include in my "Blitz" theory. I've still gotta work on that one a bit. Any ideas?
4. Eddowes may have been with the man who Lawende,Harris,& Levy walked past and then again she may not have been. As you and I know, most "kneetremblers" occurred in alleyways or at least not in the open. To my mind, if Eddowes was cognizant of the 3 men who passed her with the man she was seen with ( and we are assuming that it was Eddowes that was seen for the time being ) that she would have likewise been aware of any other men, notably policemen, who could just as easily have walked through the open square and intervened, possibly re-arresting her.
She had just spent some time in jail and unless I'm wrong, the first thing someone who has just gotten out of a jail cell wants is to go right back into one. Again, the location seems to be a little unusual for one, in this case me, to accept and ordinarily a liasing between pross and client finds the pross doing the steering,not the other way around.
....which leads me back to Stride.
In my view, its unlikely that someone who would commit a domestic murder would do so in such a brazen fashion. I hear Glenn Andersson grinding his teeth....
I lean towards the BSMan wanting to take her into Dutfield's Yard, but before Pipeman arrived on the scene and before Schwartz made his way down Berner Street. Sometimes,I think people assume that both Pipeman and BSMan were associated in some way or at least on Berner Street at the exact same time. I'm someone who doesn't feel that thats etched in stone.
After his initial attempt at seducing her into the Yard failed, I envision that the Pipeman then made his appearance and then Schwartz came on the scene. Faced with "failure" for the first time ( theoretically ) he reacts in a way we assume the stealthy,slithering Ripper would not have and that is by shoving her down, waiting for the two fellows to leave the street, taking her in to the yard and simply killing her. Any attempts at mutilation are for one reason or the other stymied by some unknown factor.
Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it,Lord Z
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Originally posted by Howard Brown View PostI just happen to be of the "school of thought" that doesn't believe the Ripper necessarily was definitely stealthy or definitely sheepish about being spotted.
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Dear Mitch:
Plausible idea you have for sure. Thanks for mentioning the sequence of events....
I just happen to be of the "school of thought" that doesn't believe the Ripper necessarily was definitely stealthy or definitely sheepish about being spotted.
I also lean towards the possibility/likelihood that he, JTR/BSMan, blitzed the victims without the slightest inhibition at all...whether on the street on Bucks Row..in Mitre Square..or in a yard on Berner Street. I should have explained that.
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