Berner Street - Drawing from Ipswich Journal

[Chris Scott]

Ipswich Journal
5 October 1888

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Many thanks for this illustration; also for the one of Mitre Square.

If the Berner Street artist has got the IWEC correct, then in Philip's photograph the first floor has sprouted side windows and the top storey is missing.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

If the Berner Street artist has got the IWEC correct, then in Philip's photograph the first floor has sprouted side windows and the top storey is missing.

No, I think the two-story building with windows seen in the photo is the building behind the one shown in the drawing.

[George Hutchinson]

Simon, what you are seeing in this illustration is the front of #40 Berner Street. The IWEC and affiliated Dutfields Yard buildings were behind it. In the 1900 photograph, #40 is indeed free of windows although the IWEC behind it isn't. The only roof level that can be seen on the 1900 photograph is that of the IWEC and not the main part of #40 facing Berner Street and running down the first part of the northern side of the yard. If you look at the illustration Chris found and posted above, you will see the roofline of the IWEC behind the front part of #40 running as a small diagonal line across and above the gates.

PHILIP

[Fisherman]

The stone at the bottom right hand corner of the gates is not there. It is in place both in the classic pic with the wagon wheel over the yard and in Philip´s pic. Did the drawer just skip it, or was it not in place in 1888...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Chris, that the artist took some care in producing the image you found is supported by the similarities found in the 'The Pictorial News' image of October 6th 1888.

George, you are seriously telling us that the building fronting 40 Berner Street was not part of the IWEC building although it carried a blooming great banner across the front of the building declaring that it was the IWEC building?
I think I trust Morris Eagle more than I trust you in this regard. From the 'London Evening News':

'I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours.'

I await your explanation with interest.

[Monty]

Princess Alice Simon, Princess Alice.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Sorry to be dim.

Princess Alice? In the context of Dutfields Yard, you've got me stumped.

Regards,

Simon

[John Bennett]

Erm, the gates are shut in that sketch. What's that going to tell us about what's behind them? Not much.

[Monty]

Simon

You aint dim, far from it.

The Princess Alice pub lost a level. Im not saying that the IWEC did too but it is possible in the 13 or so years.

Like I say, not suggesting this is what happend, just stating a thought.

[Sam Flynn]

Erm, the gates are shut in that sketch. What's that going to tell us about what's behind them?

...the truth is too horrible to contemplate, John:

[Fisherman]

If I´m not misremembering here, I seem to recall that it was stated on a thread some time ago that the clubhouse was indeed of poor building quality. That may perhaps have played a role in a decision to tear part of it down?

I have tried to find the passage, but with no success. Anybody who can help out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Got it!

It was a post made by Jake Luukanen on the Berner st photo thread (post 302), where it said:
"From Fishman we know that the clubhouse was deemed unsafe for club usage by the LCC inspectors (in the nineties, but I don't have the date at hand). Therefore the horizontal beams are possibly ones used to shore the building up."

So maybe that was it - maybe the building was deemed unsafe and partially torn down at some stage before 1900?

The best,
Fisherman

[Cap'n Jack]

Expanded witness testimony of Morris Eagle:

''As he found the front door closed he went through the gateway leading into the yard, and through the back door leading into the club.'

That statement leaves no room for doubt or procrastination.

It is the responsibility of those who claim that the mismatched image in the 1900 photograph is 40 Berner Street; and then explain and prove why.
This they have miserably failed to do.
I say it is not 40 Berner Street and I've yet to hear or see one serious piece of historical evidence to change my honest opinion.
Me thinks they grasp at straws as they drown.

[Sam Flynn]

Expanded witness testimony of Morris Eagle:

''As he found the front door closed he went through the gateway leading into the yard, and through the back door leading into the club.'

That statement leaves no room for doubt or procrastination.

True enough, AP. The fact that there was a short alley that connected the gateway to the yard doesn't negate the proposition that the gateway "led to the yard", anymore than it would be incorrect to deny that the Fosse Way led to Lincoln, on the basis that it led to many places in between. Eagle was hardly likely to say, "I went through the gateway leading into the alley that led to the yard", was he?