Berner Street - Drawing from Ipswich Journal

[The Good Michael]

I'm getting confused with all this Fisherman and Fishman stuff. I vote we call our Swedish friend 'The Angler'. That name also has detective connotations.

Cheers,

Mike

[Natalie Severn]

Natalie Severn writes:
"Fisherman,
In East End Jewish Radicals by Fishman ,there are several descriptions of the Berner Street club,and in Appendix 1 there is an Evening Standard article of 1894, referring to it being judged to be unsafe by the local council,but there is no mention of it actually being pulled down."

Thanks for that, Natalie! I only posted it to show that there may have been a good reason to renovate the building in that particular age.

The best!
Fisherman

However,the problem I see with that line of reasoning is that Philip tells us that Dutfield"syard underwent some renovation/ extensive building works,in 1892 and if that is the case then clearly the old building that housed the Berner Street club could not have been part of that programme.The problem with regard to renovation after that date is that the leaseholder was apparently in deep litigation with the sub tenants in the latter part of the1890"s and therefore would have been most unlikely to incur such costs himself and neither would the absent landlord----such being notorious for neglecting their properties.However ,all of this can reasonably easily be checked out sometime at the official record office,who will have all such building works detailed in their archived records of leases.
Best
Norma

[Fisherman]

Natalie Severn writes:
"Fisherman,
In East End Jewish Radicals by Fishman ,there are several descriptions of the Berner Street club,and in Appendix 1 there is an Evening Standard article of 1894, referring to it being judged to be unsafe by the local council,but there is no mention of it actually being pulled down."

Thanks for that, Natalie! I only posted it to show that there may have been a good reason to renovate the building in that particular age.

The best!
Fisherman

[Chris]

If people are sceptical about the fact that at 40 Berner Street there was a 3-story building in front and a 2-story building behind, they can have a look at the Goad insurance plan, posted by Robert Clack on January 13, 2005:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/14948.html

[Natalie Severn]

Fisherman,
In East End Jewish Radicals by Fishman ,there are several descriptions of the Berner Street club,and in Appendix 1 there is an Evening Standard article of 1894, referring to it being judged to be unsafe by the local council,but there is no mention of it actually being pulled down.
But ofcourse the whole thing could have been pulled down,or had additional windows put in,back and sides, been re-roofed ,re-chimneyed, recobbled, [or part -cobbled at the front] etc in the intervening twelve years.

[Sam Flynn]

Expanded witness testimony of Morris Eagle:

''As he found the front door closed he went through the gateway leading into the yard, and through the back door leading into the club.'

That statement leaves no room for doubt or procrastination.

True enough, AP. The fact that there was a short alley that connected the gateway to the yard doesn't negate the proposition that the gateway "led to the yard", anymore than it would be incorrect to deny that the Fosse Way led to Lincoln, on the basis that it led to many places in between. Eagle was hardly likely to say, "I went through the gateway leading into the alley that led to the yard", was he?

[Cap'n Jack]

Expanded witness testimony of Morris Eagle:

''As he found the front door closed he went through the gateway leading into the yard, and through the back door leading into the club.'

That statement leaves no room for doubt or procrastination.

It is the responsibility of those who claim that the mismatched image in the 1900 photograph is 40 Berner Street; and then explain and prove why.
This they have miserably failed to do.
I say it is not 40 Berner Street and I've yet to hear or see one serious piece of historical evidence to change my honest opinion.
Me thinks they grasp at straws as they drown.

[Fisherman]

Got it!

It was a post made by Jake Luukanen on the Berner st photo thread (post 302), where it said:
"From Fishman we know that the clubhouse was deemed unsafe for club usage by the LCC inspectors (in the nineties, but I don't have the date at hand). Therefore the horizontal beams are possibly ones used to shore the building up."

So maybe that was it - maybe the building was deemed unsafe and partially torn down at some stage before 1900?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

If I´m not misremembering here, I seem to recall that it was stated on a thread some time ago that the clubhouse was indeed of poor building quality. That may perhaps have played a role in a decision to tear part of it down?

I have tried to find the passage, but with no success. Anybody who can help out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Erm, the gates are shut in that sketch. What's that going to tell us about what's behind them?

...the truth is too horrible to contemplate, John:

[Monty]

Simon

You aint dim, far from it.

The Princess Alice pub lost a level. Im not saying that the IWEC did too but it is possible in the 13 or so years.

Like I say, not suggesting this is what happend, just stating a thought.

[John Bennett]

Erm, the gates are shut in that sketch. What's that going to tell us about what's behind them? Not much.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Sorry to be dim.

Princess Alice? In the context of Dutfields Yard, you've got me stumped.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Princess Alice Simon, Princess Alice.

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Chris, that the artist took some care in producing the image you found is supported by the similarities found in the 'The Pictorial News' image of October 6th 1888.

George, you are seriously telling us that the building fronting 40 Berner Street was not part of the IWEC building although it carried a blooming great banner across the front of the building declaring that it was the IWEC building?
I think I trust Morris Eagle more than I trust you in this regard. From the 'London Evening News':

'I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours.'

I await your explanation with interest.