How Long Did the BS Man-Liz Encounter Take?

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but what if she was waiting for someone?

I guess she'd have chosen a better-lit, and less obscure, spot for the rendezvous in the first place, CD. Besides, date or no date, I'd still have been inclined to move to a safer location after being roughed-up and thrown onto a dirty pavement. I might even have knocked the door and asked Mrs Diemschutz for a loan of a clothes-brush to get the muck off before my putative lover-boy arrived.

[Observer]

Hi Fisheman

Yes, Sam and String; there is every reason to believe that Liz would have left the stage if BS man gave her the opportunity to by retracting himself. Very much agreed. She would have been upset and in need to improve on her apparition.

All the best,
Fisherman

But what if Jack the Ripper came on the scene just as Stride was about to depart, he could even have witnessed the scene farther up or down the street? He was known to parly with his victims, he was observed talking with Kate Eddowes shortly before they entered Mitre Square, how long had they been there talking before Lawende and company arrived on the scene? By the time he talked Stride into Dutfields Yard, Deimshutz was on his way down Berner Street, thus he had only time to cut Liz Strides throat.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Obs,

But what if Jack the Ripper came on the scene just as Stride was about to depart

Then he simultaneously had perfect and lousy timing. Perfect, because Liz was still there, presumably dusting herself off - just at the moment he arrived, as if from nowhere. Lousy, because Diemschutz was probably a couple of tens of seconds away when Liz's throat was cut. It's such a very contrived, not to say unlikely, series of events that it baffles me why the "interruption" theory still holds strong after all this time.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Hi Obs,Then he simultaneously had perfect and lousy timing. Perfect, because Liz was still there, presumably dusting herself off - just at the moment he arrived, as if from nowhere. Lousy, because Diemschutz was probably a couple of tens of seconds away when Liz's throat was cut. It's such a very contrived, not to say unlikely, series of events that it baffles me why the "interruption" theory still holds strong after all this time.

I know it sounds far fetched Sam but not an impossibility. Fact is Liz Stride was despatched with the same cool dexterity that was the hallmark of Jack the Ripper, add this to the fact that the Ripper was out and about that night, and we can not rule Liz Stride as a Ripper victim.

all the best

Observer

[caz]

Hi Sam,

I really don't see why it would be a very contrived or unlikely series of events.

You might have said the same about the recent Sally Anne Bowman case in South Croydon, where she sat rowing with her ex in his car for an hour before getting out and then being attacked with a knife and killed before she could walk the few yards to her front door. Her ex was only cleared of involvement by the DNA tests that proved she was murdered by a serial sex offender who was a complete stranger to her and from outside the area, but happened to have lived in the same road at one time. Interestingly, after he killed her he moved away from the body to wait in the darkness in case anyone in the houses had heard anything and might come to investigate. When nobody did and all was quiet he returned to mutilate her and take her phone as a trophy.

I'm sure many unfortunates like Liz would have put up with a fair bit of abusive behaviour from male passers-by before feeling the need to abandon the spot they had chosen to occupy, presumably not just to enjoy the view and the fresh air. Besides, if the argument is that lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place, she could have felt safer staying put if BS had quickly lost interest and sodded off to annoy someone else.

I also think it's a wee bit unrealistic to have the likes of Liz asking someone in the club for a clothes brush and not expecting to be given the brush off. Even if she wasn't actively soliciting at the time, one could have been forgiven for assuming she wasn't out there alone in the dark waiting for Sunday morning church.

Moreover, she would not have knocked up someone inside the club if Jack arrived on the scene bearing cachous and sympathy while she was still pulling herself together, and possibly still swearing at the disappearing figure of BS. The more time one claims Jack would have had to mutilate Liz, between the last witness departing and the next one appearing to find her dead, the more reasons could have been presented to him for not doing so.

We don't know how long he may have needed to keep her sweet before he could safely distract her and whip out his weapon. If some noise had distracted him as he cut her throat, or if any noise had been made in the process, he could have decided to lie low in the yard for a bit, just like Sally's killer in South Croydon, waiting for any danger to pass - only in Jack's case something then spooked him into not returning to the body.

So many plausible scenarios, so few certainties.

The most implausible ones for me are those which force some unknown man into becoming a throat-cutting assassin for one night only, when we all know very well that Jack was in the area, tooled up and ready to go, and capable of doing this one with his eyes shut.

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

As for possible interruptions, what about someone coming out of the club to smoke a cigarette? That would take about five minutes more or less would it not? Also, is it unrealistic to think that someone might have come outside to use the privy? What about two people leaving the club at the same time? Would it be so farfetched if they stopped to talk -- "Are you going to be at the meeting next week?" "I'm not sure yet. Who is going to be speaking?... and so on. A conversation that could easily run into a few minutes. So I have no problem with Jack ducking into the shadows to see how these things played out and then giving it up as a bad business and deciding to look for another victim somewhere else.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

I really don't see why it would be a very contrived or unlikely series of events.

You might have said the same about the recent Sally Anne Bowman case in South Croydon, where she sat rowing with her ex in his car for an hour before getting out and then being attacked with a knife and killed before she could walk the few yards to her front door.

A good point, Caz - although for the comparison to be completely apt, the row between Sally-Anne and her boyfriend should have been very brief, somewhat physical and reported by at least one witness, but I don't think either of these conditions applied. As it was, the prolonged nature of the debate in the stationary vehicle would have allowed more time for her future killer to witness what was going on, and even to get more excited by the wait. This stands in stark contrast to the brief, blitz argument Stride had had with her aggressor - such a timespan doesn't readily support the scenario of an opportunistic voyeur just happening to be in the immediate vicinity, whilst a brief altercation flared up and blew its course.

[caz]

So simple c.d, and so NOT far-fetched, contrived or unlikely.

I don't know how anything like this could be ruled out.

But no doubt someone will be along soon to try their best.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

...an opportunistic voyeur just happening to be in the immediate vicinity, whilst a brief altercation flared up and blew its course.

Oh Sam, do you seriously think it's so unlikely that a man out looking for suitably vulnerable lone women on the streets after midnight would ever see one having a brief altercation with some passing lout that flares up and blows its course? If Schwartz and Pipe Man just happened to see this one, why not Jack? There is not even any evidence that Liz was hurt during her alleged altercation with BS. An everyday occurrence, I'd have thought, and an occupational hazard for any woman loitering by a club entrance.

They keep you very sheltered in Wales, don't they?

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

So simple c.d, and so NOT far-fetched, contrived or unlikely.

I don't know how anything like this could be ruled out.

But no doubt someone will be along soon to try their best.

Love,

Caz
X

Along with death and taxes, I think we can pretty much count on it.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Caz writes:

"The most implausible ones for me are those which force some unknown man into becoming a throat-cutting assassin for one night only, when we all know very well that Jack was in the area, tooled up and ready to go, and capable of doing this one with his eyes shut."

How many unknown men do you think turn into killers in the span of, say, a year in London? In Britain? In Europe?
And what creature do you think is the rarer one, Caz; the man who for some reason turns into a single-strike killer, or a mutilating serial killer?
And why is it so hard to remember the fact that Stride was one of THREE London women who had their throats cut that night, the third woman having her throat slit by such a figure that you claim is EXTREMELY unlikely to appear: a single-strike killer, slitting a womans throat?

I´m with Sam here: it is very, very strange that the good ol´interruption scenario has survived through the years. To me, that is a certainty that I can offer, should you still be on the prowl for such things, Caz!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Does anyone know the distance between the club and where Liz's body was found?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I´m with Sam here: it is very, very strange that the good ol´interruption scenario has survived through the years. To me, that is a certainty that I can offer, should you still be on the prowl for such things, Caz!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

I can't speak for English bladders only American ones. Now it may be that the two differ significantly or that evoultion has weakened bladders since 1888 for some unknown reason. But here in the good old U.S. of A., if I knew there was a roomfull of men and that these men had been in the room for several hours, I would expect that at least one of those men would have ventured outside for a pit stop. In fact, I would be pretty much willing to bet the farm on it. But again, I am only speaking of American bladders.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Caz,

Oh Sam, do you seriously think it's so unlikely that a man out looking for suitably vulnerable lone women on the streets after midnight would ever see one having a brief altercation with some passing lout that flares up and blows its course?

Let's say that there were 5 hours after midnight during which vulnerable women might have been on a sufficiently deserted street for Jack to have struck - that's 300 minutes, during which let's say Liz was left alone for 3 minutes after BS had roughed her up and cleared the scene. Assuming she stayed there, the odds of Jack just happening by would have been roughly 100:1, which is nothing, I'll grant you. However, when you multiply that by the huge number of possible thoroughfares in East London down which Jack might have sauntered circa 12:40 PM, it wouldn't be overstating the case to say that she was exceptionally unlucky to have met him of all people, so soon after her tussle with the first assailant.

If, like Bowman, she'd been arguing with this man for over 1½ hours, then the chances of another weirdo wandering by and homing in on her would have increased, of course - but she wasn't there for anything like that length of time, and neither did her row last anywhere near as long.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

With regard to the other victims, are we to assume that they had no interaction with anyone else prior to meeting Jack? Had they chosen to ply their trade in another geographical location that night they might have escaped being a victim. Unluckily, they too were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

c.d.