Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Fisherman]

Stephen Thomas writes:
"Maybe I should put you in touch with my delightful son who lives in Stockholm and then you'll have to use two hands."

Stockholm is some sixhundred kilometres from where I live, Stephen; Sweden is a very long country, measuring nearly two-thousand kilometres from north to south.
But when it comes to making friends, distance is nothing!

All the best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hello Fish,
thanks for the faint smell of Nils Holgersson...

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Hi David!

You´re welcome. Plus you are obviously what I would call a truly educated man...! Don´t tell me you picked up on Nils´travels on Akkas´back in French school???

Makes me desperately scan my shallow pond of literature knowledge, coming up with...let´s see, hmmm... Gargantua?

The best, David!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Correct me if I´m wrong, Mike. But sentiments like these are NOT the kind of things that would lead jews revolting against traditional judaism to pick up on using "Lipski" as an insult against people they believed not to support their cause.

Fisherman,

Get a handle on things, please. I suggested that 'Lipski' could be said, in this particular incident, because there was something bad going on, and outsiders weren't welcome. You make this seem as if I suggest that the Club is nothing but a band of ruffians who hang around and insult people all day. That's absolutely incorrect. Imagine a Club member (or two) wanting to get rid of a passerby so that he (they) could finish up with Stride. Shouting 'Lipski' is the minimum they would do, and perhaps sending Pipeman after Schwartz was all about reinforcing the idea that non-members needed to mind their own business. As Schwartz by all accounts, had a Jewish appearance, the use of 'Lipski' in an angry voice is at the very least reasonable in this scenario, and at most, quite probable, Please don't put extreme ideas into my suggestions. Use a bit of nuance.

Cheers,

Mike

[harry]

Fisherman,
A swirling wind speaks for itself.It eddies and swirls in all directions.

[harry]

The word 'lipski',like most of Schwartz information,should be viewed with caution.Was it ever uttered?
From the time the incident began,untill Schwarts passed the corner from where 'Pipeman'appeared,only about 12-15 seconds of time elapsed.
In these comparitably few seconds he saw,heard,and memorised an amazing amount of data.Two full,almost complete,descriptions,a brutal assault,of which he gives at least two versions,and his own remembered actions.
The perfect witness,as someone has remarked.A remarkable man.Should be more of them around.

[The Good Michael]

Harry,

If no one can be believed, why are we here? I mean that sincerely. Witnesses who have nothing to gain seem the most reliable, yet perspectives are always skewed. I think we can take Brown, and Marshall, and PC Smith, and Schwartz and make something coherent out of them. We might even be able to take the times given by the Club members as somewhat accurate, though I, for one, don't know about their details.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:
"Get a handle on things, please"

I think I have that already, Mike.

"Imagine a Club member (or two) wanting to get rid of a passerby so that he (they) could finish up with Stride. Shouting 'Lipski' is the minimum they would do"

Get a handle on things, Mike (Could´nt resist that one). The LEAST thing they could do, if they wanted to scare Schwartz off and were jews themselves, would NOT be to shout "Lipski". "Get out of here, or I´ll kick your teeth (NOT ´jewish teeth´mind you) in", would be a far simpler and probably just as efficient alternative.
An argumentation like the one you use here, Mike, is not a viable one. You cannot state that a jew calling a fellow jew a name that is derogatory towards jews is the least thing they could do. It would be an anomaly any way you look at it, and I don´t think that anomalies should be preferred over perfectly rational alternatives.

The best!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

The Berner Streeters despised Judaism, and that's a fact. If you can't see that that gives them license to use Jewish Epithets, I don't know how to explain it to you. These guys were the antithesis of Zionists. You should read the article that Howard linked to to give you an understanding of the kind of young men that we're dealing with. The article presents them in an even worse light than I thought. Calling someone a name when they felt threatened (just a scenario, mind you) is the very least of what they were capable of. "Lipski" was nothing to them.

Cheers,

Mike

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Not only is Rabbi's Hirsch's contemporary article a good indicator of the rift in Jewry at that time...but Fisherman might be overlooking the disdain the Assimilated Jewish citizenry of London had for those who were considered 'boat rockers". It wasn't just one clique which disliked the other...it was probably a mutually held feeling... Glad that you, at least,enjoyed the article.

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:
"The Berner Streeters despised Judaism, and that's a fact. If you can't see that that gives them license to use Jewish Epithets, I don't know how to explain it to you. "

Yes, Mike; and if you dont understand that it would be a strange thing to do, even if you were radically opposing Judaism, to hurl a specifically anti-jewish insult at a man of whom you did not even know if he was a jew, let alone have any idea of what convictions he had on the matter, then there is little more that I can do for you, I´m afraid.
I had trouble reading Howard´s recommended article; it came up as very BIG text on my computer, and I could find no way to diminish it. That means I have not been able to take part of the full text. It seems, however, that it referred to the jews in USA, specifically Chicago, and thus it won´t be a hundred percent applicable to our friends in the club-house, I feel.
That does not mean that I don´t know that the clubbers were very much opposed to judaism, though - they were, and there is much evidence left to prove it. I still think that it would be useful to see any relevant stuff from that time and that place showing that derogatory, anti-jewish scorning was something that was used against people of whom the clubbers knew absolutely nothing.
To use such expressions against people whom the clubbers knew were fervent judaists would be another thing, with a lot more sense to it, but I am not all that sure that even such things were recorded when it came to the Berner Street clubmen. And even if it was, it would, as I initially stated, be a totally different thing.

The best, Mike, Howard!
Fisherman

[harry]

Mike,
It is a well known fact that a great deal of what witness's say,sometimes turn out to be innacurate.It is also well known that witnesses can be led to give innacurare information by means of suggestion.I have not said that the evidence of Schwartz should be dismissed in its entire'ty,but that the language, time factor,and conditions ,should make it matter of caution.
While I do believe in the presence of BS and Pipeman,and that an altercation between BS and Stride did take place outside Duttfield yard,I am not so ready to believe,as others seem to,the literal truth to be as described by Schwartz,or interpreted by others.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

You of course have a point there, Harry; keeping in mind that Schwarts had to give his version of what happened through an interpretor, we must be wary of his testimony.
The thing I have always thought speaks much in favour of Schwartz, though, is that he gives himself the role of a coward, and not very many people who cook up stories do that. I also think that a couple of odd observations point to his story being something that described real-life events. I am referring to the fact that it was mentioned that BS man tried to pull Stride into the street, and that she kept her voice lowered as she cried out. Things like these add a flavour of honesty to the story, at least the way I look upon it.

The best!
Fisherman

[Rosey O'Ryan]

"The clubmen despised Judism as a faith and didn't care at all for its practitioners. They are notorious for this. They held feasts with a roasted pig as the centerpiece on the holidays when Jews were fasting. Eagle had just THAT EVENING given a speech on why Jews should be socialist. It would not be at all surprising to see him use an anti-Semitic epithet."- Wescott

Yes it would, Tom. It is one thing to strive towards a more secular society, but quite another to start calling fellow jews "jewish pig", "long-schnaaz" or - "Lipsky". It falters logically, and I must disagree with you totally on the matter.--Fisherman

Uh,Fisherman...you're wrong.

Selbsthass ( self hate in German) is a condition which Jews have and its been manifested throughout history in numerous circumstances,particularly in cases of former religious ( still ethnically ) Judenvolk converting to Christendom. Some of the damaging "blood libel" cases were inspired by "former" Jews to the new religion. Wescott's right.

I also know of less belligerent instances of former Jews castigating their fellow Jew for their Jewishness.

Hi Brownie,
Do not forget their lack of linguistic skills, e.g., "Juwes". Personally I have never met a 'self-hating Jew', but I have met plenty of 'Zionist' who would describe other Jews this way. Its a tribal thing...like the rest of the world, they get p*ssed off with each other. But that don't mean their de killer mon!
Rosey :-)

[Fisherman]

The thing I turn against, Rosey, is that insults aimed to question another persons wiew are suggested as having been thrown about REGARDLESS of what wiews that other person (in this case: Schwartz) held.
It´s like calling somebody "you commie scum" or "you friggin´death-sentence activist" without having a scrap of knowledge what that somebody is about, ideologically.

The best,
Fisherman