Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[c.d.]

People who don't accept Jack as Liz's killer make the argument that his arrival on the scene just after the BS man had left is too much of a coincidence. But what if Jack had been there first? Consider this scenario -- Liz is waiting for Jack or Jack approaches her as a customer. Liz suggests going into the yard for a quick one. Jack does not like the idea of killing so close to the club but is overcome by the opportunity at hand. He tells Liz that he wants to check out the yard to see how secluded it is or he tells Liz that he wants to use the privy first. Jack checks the yard. Enter the BS man. Liz tells him that she has a customer but there is no one in sight. The BS man takes offense at this perceived slight. Now we have the scene that Schwartz saw. The BS man sees Jack approaching from the yard and says "ah **** she did have a customer" and goes off in search of other prostitutes. Liz tells Jack what just took place. Liz then takes Jack into the yard and Jack does his thing. This would also explain the cachous. Liz gets them out after the BS man has left so that she can use them to service Jack.

What say you?

It is a beautiful day here and I am taking the day off and going on a long bike ride. I shall read the comments when I get back.

c.d.

[Simon Owen]

Wouldn't the cachous be used to sweeten the breath for purposes of kissing ? As a rule , prostitutes don't kiss. From Liz's behaviour that night she seems to have been acting more like a girlfriend to the man she was seen with , rather than hanging around on the street corner.

She might have used a breath freshner after performing fellatio , but theres no evidence that she actually did this : as far as we know the Ripper didn't have sexual relations with any of his victims. I think as well that Duffield's yard would have been too risky to have attempted relations in , there was too much chance of being discovered.

[Sam Flynn]

From Liz's behaviour that night she seems to have been acting more like a girlfriend to the man she was seen with...

...indeed, which may gain added impetus from the fact that she (and Kidney) had once lived, for quite a long period of time, a very short walk away from Berner Street.

[Mitch Rowe]

...indeed, which may gain added impetus from the fact that she (and Kidney) had once lived, for quite a long period of time, a very short walk away from Berner Street.

Right.. Liz could have had her own line of regulars. BS Man may have blown his chance with Liz somehow. And she tells him to get lost theres plenty more where he came from. Then she finds JTR.

[Dan Norder]

People who don't accept Jack as Liz's killer make the argument that his arrival on the scene just after the BS man had left is too much of a coincidence.

...which assumes for no good reason that Broad-Shoulders man couldn't be the Ripper (his actions seem perfectly compatible with those of known serial killers) and also that Israel Schwartz's testimony is trustworthy in the first place.

[Fisherman]

Dan Norder writes:

"(his actions seem perfectly compatible with those of known serial killers)"

If you choose a lot more surface than water, then yes. But his actions are of course equally compatible to those of known one-off killers. And B S man does not seem to be the same man that Lawende saw some time later - whatever THAT holds, information- and factwise.

Besides, it could be argued that the Ripper seemed a lot more cautious about not being seen before or after his handiwork, so in that respect, that is a serial killer compared to whom B S man seems to use quite a different approach.

Still does not mean that you are wrong, though. And technically, I feel that B S man has never enjoyed the attention as a possible Ripper that he is entitled to. The reason I don´t favour him as our man admittedly has got a lot to do with personal chemistry, but there you are ...

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

One of the charms of these boards are that you get to say the same thing over and over again.
So when Simon Wood asks: "Wouldn't the cachous be used to sweeten the breath for purposes of kissing ?"

...then I of course will tell him no, that need not be the case at all, I get to explain to him that cachous were EITHER strong or mild and sweet, and I get to elaborate on the fact that the opinion that East End harlots spent their days and night chewing away at french, strong cachous from Lajaunie is something that is totally and utterly unsubstantiated since we have NO evidence whatsoever of ANY prostitutes of that period, in that town, using cachous for purposes of improving their breath to please their customers.
Killed prostitutes had their belongings listed, just like "our" unfortunates. I am still waiting for somebody to show me such a list that contains cachous. Such lists seem incredibly hard to come by, for some reason. Makes you wonder why, does it not, since it simply MUST have been such a common practice.

Then again, it can get awfully tedious to repeat yourself over and over again. Lajaunie were not even selling their famed cachous at that time, Simon, by the way.

Oh, well...

Fisherman(s friend)
Strooooong convictions

[Dan Norder]

Besides, it could be argued that the Ripper seemed a lot more cautious about not being seen before or after his handiwork

Lots of things can be argued, but whether there's any real evidence to support it or not is another thing entirely.

[anna]

Hi all,
I think the cachous belonged to Jack,perhaps he was a pipe smoker?

Maybe they were in a top pocket as Liz grabbed for his jacket,and the sweets came out and were still in her hand as she fell.To me,it's quite possible that she would try to grab at his clothing,to stop herself from falling.
Holding onto something would also have given her some sort of reassurance,so the fact that the sweets are still in her hand,makes sense.

[Simon Owen]

One of the charms of these boards are that you get to say the same thing over and over again.
So when Simon Wood asks: "Wouldn't the cachous be used to sweeten the breath for purposes of kissing ?"

...then I of course will tell him no, that need not be the case at all, I get to explain to him that cachous were EITHER strong or mild and sweet, and I get to elaborate on the fact that the opinion that East End harlots spent their days and night chewing away at french, strong cachous from Lajaunie is something that is totally and utterly unsubstantiated since we have NO evidence whatsoever of ANY prostitutes of that period, in that town, using cachous for purposes of improving their breath to please their customers.
Killed prostitutes had their belongings listed, just like "our" unfortunates. I am still waiting for somebody to show me such a list that contains cachous. Such lists seem incredibly hard to come by, for some reason. Makes you wonder why, does it not, since it simply MUST have been such a common practice.

Then again, it can get awfully tedious to repeat yourself over and over again. Lajaunie were not even selling their famed cachous at that time, Simon, by the way.

Oh, well...

Fisherman(s friend)
Strooooong convictions

Yes , very good , but you've got the name of the poster wrong !

[anna]

Dan,

Any suggestions as to why we should all carry on debating this topic then?

There has to be the belief,that at some time we can get somewhere with it.

[DVV]

"C'est bon pour la gorge, c'est bon pour le nez,
C'est bon pour les bronches si vous êtes enrhumés,
Cachous Lajaunie, cachous Lajaunie..."
The Fabulous Trobadors, Toulouse, early 90's.

[Simon Owen]

"la main gauche appuyée sur le sol tient un petit paquet de cachou enveloppé dans du papier Joseph"

[DVV]

Viech d'ai! Lou counouissi pas gaire, aqueù papié Joùsé!!! Qu'es aco??"

Seriously Simon, I appreciated your previous post about the double-event, though I can't decide anything about Stride's murder...

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

...which assumes for no good reason that Broad-Shoulders man couldn't be the Ripper (his actions seem perfectly compatible with those of known serial killers) and also that Israel Schwartz's testimony is trustworthy in the first place.

Absolutely.

The notion that BS man couldn't have been the ripper is closely allied to the concept of serial killers as virtual robots with immaculately fine-tuned MOs, which we know to be nonsense. Something as simple as a non-compliant and brusque Elizabeth Stride, or even a slightly more intoxicated ripper could explain the slight change in approach.

That said, I've no real problem per se with the argument that Stride was a ripper victim (I'm not too far off the fence myself). The worst offenders to my mind are those who want Stride to be a ripper victim, but can't bear the idea of the ripper being in any way illusion-shatteringly shabby or "thug-like" in his behaviour, so come up with weak excuses for ruling out the BS man as Stride's killer.

And, Fish me ol' mucker, it's great that we're seeing eye to eye on so many issues lately, but I really don't think you can dispute a superficial congruity between the broad-shouldered man and Lawende's suspect.

Best regards,
Ben