Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

The thing is, horses that are untrained or barely trained can be spooked by anything they see as being different. A shirt on a tree, or a garbage bag, or even a stick on the ground can scare a horse if it isn't trained. My contention is that a city pony would be used to all kinds of things, but if the passage was a place where it and the cart often ended up, I don't think blood would scare it, but I think an anomoly in its path would. None of the horses I had were afraid of odd smells, even skunks (though I was), but something odd in their regular path could make them shy away, sometimes.
My horses had to grow up around dogs, cats, and many, many neighborhood kids. Generally speaking, and this is a fact, smell doesn't affect horses. Some, yes, but not generally. The pony would have smelled the body on the ground, however, and known where it was, but it wouldn't have been the blood that scared it, just the knowledge that there was something there.

Cheers,

Mike

[The Good Michael]

and I am of the opinion that neither would shy away from the smell of a recently deceased person. They would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that is what I think was happening.”

Ah yes, it was being FORCED into it. That is why it shied, and that is why it didn't come into contact with it.

Mike

[Fisherman]

C´mon Mike!

It would not tread on one unless forced into it, and that was what happened.

So it was forced into it, and that is why it tread on it.

Surely, you must see that this is how most people would read it? Not that it matters, since it is only what you believed happened that counts. But I think you may extend me the admittance that it was there to be read?

And I won´t yield an inch here, I´m afraid. Horses shy away from blood. And the way Stride was lying, it is much more credible that the pony did not steer against the body. If it happened, then Diemschitz must have taken rather a sharp turn to the right after passing through the gates. And the body was lying not very far from them gates.

The best, Mike!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

I can vaguely see how you could have read that, however, my intention was that it was being forced into the body and its natural disinclination to trod on something in its path caused it to shy. No way did it tread on Stride. At least we are agreed on that.

And you can believe in the blood shying all you want. It's cool.

Mike

[Fisherman]

"And you can believe in the blood shying all you want. It's cool."

Yep. AND correct, mind you!

The best!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Here you go, Mike; horses and the smell of blood:

From the book ”Lonesome Dove” by Larry McMurtree:

It's hard to argue against these kind of sources.

Fish, why are you calling him Diemschitz?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Nobody, Tom, and I mean nobody, argues against "Lonesome Dove"!

Then again, it was not the only source I offered. And the passage from it went well to show what I was speaking about.

Why do I call him Diemschitz? You mean you have no idea, Tom? Then I´ll try Diemshütz the next time over!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Tom's right, Fisherman - it's "ДЫМШИЦ"

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

I was just surprised to see you adopting what I believe is the true spelling of his name. Generally, you disregard my findings on principal. I still call him Diemschutz to avoid confusion and distraction.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"Generally, you disregard my findings on principal."

Tom, this puts me in an awkward spot, since if i say "yes, I do" I make you right, whereas if I say "no, I don´t" i will make you right anyway. Sort of.

The fact of the matter, Tom is that I hold you high in regard as a Ripper researcher. When it comes to your talent for taking criticizm and exchanging with people, however, I am not as fond of you. But I am prepared to take the bad things with the good ones at most opportunities. Most, that is.

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Sorry If I mistook some comments, but has it been seriously suggested that the pony shied from blood? Since Louis had to light a match to even be sure it was a dead body, and it is described as being in the darkest spot in the yard, I would think the scent of blood may have alerted the pony, but the shadowy object was what caused it to shy. She is on her left side,...her feet and butt are towards the gates/pony, ankle length skirt, black evening jacket. She would have been a dark thing that smelled like blood....but no-one saw any "blood" unaided by light.

Cheers all.

[The Good Michael]

Michael,

Of course it was the body. If the pony didn't see it, it certainly had the capacity smell it in its path, and that was what set it off. Blood can set off a rare few horses, but typically not, and certainly not a cart pony in the worst part of London. Obstacles, of course do that to most horses.

Cheers,

Mike

[sdreid]

If Stride was truly thrown to the pavement, I've always wondered why her hands or whatever weren't skinned up. I mean, can we really believe anything that Schwartz says?

[Fisherman]

"Blood can set off a rare few horses, but typically not, and certainly not a cart pony in the worst part of London. "

You just won´t give in, will you, Mike? "A rare few horses"... Horses, and indeed very many other species of animals, are born with a natural instinct to shy away from the smell of blood. Korean-based Ripperologists, however, are not.

It is interesting, Mike, that you persistently state that a "street-wise" pony would not shy away from blood, since it was an everyday phenomenon to it. Yet you think that a body on the ground would scare it.
Why? Would the horse not be accustomed to drunk people lying in the gutters and in the streets, people sleeping rough wherever they could find space for it? Tarpaulins lying around in the yards?

The combination of a body in the darkness of a place where there was normally nothing, combined with the very apparent smell of blood - that, Mike, would have been quite enough to unnerve the horse. And we have Diemschitz´words that this was exactly what happened, making the horse shy to his left.

The best!
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fisherman,

I'm not disagreeing that smells can set off a trained horse, just that it isn't usual. Objects that they detect are much more likely to do so if they are unfamiliar with them. They have a natural propensity not to tread on human beings as well, though they will certainly kick and bite them if they are nervous. My suggestion that it knew there was a body there had to do with the smell of the body and its location that was too near its path of travel.
The argument also includes the possibility of the proximity of the murderer in the darkness who may also have been too close to its path. The horse would have known by the smell of the killer, where exactly he was and blood wouldn't have been a part of that, probably. If the horse could see the shininess of the blood in any available dim light, that is another story.

Getting back to the street smart pony, I suggest that it would not have been the skittish type with regards to odd smells or even things it could see. I believe it smelled the body, or the killer, knew it or they were in its path, and so the knowledge of a human being who it couldn't see was what scared it.

These are just my opions. Again, I spent maybe 17 years with horses, feeding them and walking them every day and riding them maybe once a week, or when I could. These observations are based upon my small body of knowledge of a few ponies and several horses.

I don't think the argument really matters save for the possibility that the killer was still there, which can hardly be argued against, as it's unknown.

Cheers,

Mike