Liz Stride: The Newest of Theories

[Sam Flynn]

Of course, it would be super coincidental if, on the same night, not so far apart in time and place, two unfortunates were killed in the same way, with a cut throat...

Not so sure about that, Mike. Longish odds, perhaps, but not super coincidental by any means. (I'll not quibble about "not so far in time/place", "two unfortunates" or "killed in the same way with a cut throat", even though I might want to - that way madness lies )

personally if this was part of the same series (im now starting to believe it could have been), then i think the difference was stride put up a better fight than any other victim. it went wrong, the killers had been interrupted once & heard the horse coming, so they legged it as this one was too much hassle, both in choice of victim & location.

joel

Couple of issues there Joel....she had breath fresheners in her hand, while tussling? Secondly, there is no evidence that Liz struggled at all....in her demeanor or attire. And thirdly, if he legged it...he would have legged it out through the gates, in clear view of Diemshutz approaching. And she made no scream that was heard by anyone...which fighting with the man might have aroused.

Best regards.

[The Good Michael]

This could have been an unplanned Ripper kill, meaning that wasn't his intention with her, but it happened for whatever reason. Because the circumstances are somewhat anomalous, doesn't make the Ripper NOT the killer (That was like the GSG!). Of course, it would be super coincidental if, on the same night, not so far apart in time and place, two unfortunates were killed in the same way, with a cut throat. Yet, his NOT wanting to kill but doing so, may be even more hard to swallow.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Woud have taken only seconds to move the body,The blood would have still been flowing...

...and leaving a trail across the yard, from the gate to where the body was eventually dropped. Such a trail would have shown whether the throat had been cut at the gate and the body moved from the gate to further inside the passage, but no such trail was reported.

[joelhall]

personally if this was part of the same series (im now starting to believe it could have been), then i think the difference was stride put up a better fight than any other victim. it went wrong, the killers had been interrupted once & heard the horse coming, so they legged it as this one was too much hassle, both in choice of victim & location.

joel

Hello all,... nice to see you by the way Harry,

There are some salient points that are being discarded to make some assumptions here......one, that Liz was in fact lying down when she was cut, when in fact the senior medical man who attended her while in that yard said she "may have been cut while falling". Find another Ripper murder where that is mentioned. Secondly, Liz's scarf was tightly twisted...indicating she was grabbed by it from the rear. As in most cases, the attack was most probably from behind the victim...as Sam pointed out, allows him to control the noise with one hand and also expose the throat. That was also a favoured choice of position for the unfortunates.

Another salient point is that there is no physical evidence to suggest he was interrupted, that is pure speculation, and the result of a Ripper bias when looking at this murder.

If the person that killed Liz was still with her when Diemshutz is arriving, the killer has had a warning for perhaps 5-10 seconds or more by the sounds...and that then means he cut her just as that sound approached. Another unsubstantiated bit of "evidence". A range of 10 minutes was established by the senior medical man onsite for the time of that single cut, and it shows that she could have been cut within a minute of Pipeman and Schwartz's departure. Interrupted then... 13-14 minutes later?

You have a woman that is not proven to have been soliciting, killed with a single throat cut perhaps a minute or two after being witnessed in an altercation with a drunk man who tried to pull her into the street, causing her to fall. That man then taunts the witness. Causing the witness and another bystander to leave the scene,...leaving that man alone with the soon to be murder victim... in the company of the drunk man who asaulted her. She is found dead by that single cut, (severing only one of two major ateries fully), lying on her left side , her face inches from the Club Wall, slightly behind the main gates when partially open. One comment made about her demeanor is that she "looked as if lain gently down".

Jack the Ripper cut the throats of his victims either while standing, or lying down....not ever "possibly while falling", Jack the Ripper always manipulates the body of the deceased to allow himself access to the pelvic and abdominal area of the victim...flat onto their backs, with legs splayed...and most importantly, Jack kills the women to enable the post mortem mutilations, which are undoubtably in some way, the primary objectives. Jack the Ripper removes intestines and cuts organs and skin flaps free. Jack the Ripper, or some unknown man, is not the last man seen with Liz Stride, an identified man....seen by a witness, is. And one of the two men in the area at the moment Schwartz sees the altercation is found by a description, and questioned by Police. We dont know whether it was Pipeman or BSM, but we do know they spoke with one of those men, and the description of Pipeman is vague.

I believe the truly telling feature is this though....if Lawende saw Kate Eddowes, then her killer did all that damage to her within 4-6 minutes likely...including ripping and cutting the apron. It is within the bounds of medical data and circumstantial evidence that the killer may have had even longer alone with Liz. If he even stayed after killing her of course. Can a case be made for Jack that includes a single cut and perhaps more than 4-6 minutes alone with a victim in a deserted yard? Nope.

The only suspect in this case that is in evidence is BSM,....and Ive yet to hear a valid reason why he would suddenly leave when he finds himself alone with the woman he grabbed and tried to pull away.

Best regards all.

[harry]

Sam,
Woud have taken only seconds to move the body,The blood would have still been flowing.
We tolerate the condition and degree of darkness because witnesses there described it so,not because I say so.
Regards.

[Sam Flynn]

While the killer may have killed near the gate

That's unlikely, Harry - the blood had flown from her neck where she lay, and it's almost certain that she was killed on that spot, rather than further "East" in the gateway.

the darkness where she was found may have prevented or deterred him from going farther with mutilations untill his eyes became accustomed to better conditions.

On top of Berner Street being an odd place for him to be wandering on the off-chance of finding an easy victim, the "ill-using" episode and the Schwartz/Pipeman hoo-hah, the busy club with an active audience singing within, the "interruption" scenario, partial and comparatively superficial wound to the throat and the lack of mutilations - we must now factor in the additional complication of the killer being thwarted by dark-adaptation. How many more such anomalies must one tolerate before one accepts the possibility that this really wasn't Jack at all?

[harry]

There seems to be some disbelief that the killer might have waited a minute or two after killing Stride,doing nothing.Consider what witnesses described.A yard that was so dark,that Diemschultz could only make out a dark object,and another person had to feel along the wall.I believe both.It is a trick of the eyesight.That darkness would have lasted for a minute or two untill the eyes became conditioned to the light.
While the killer may have killed near the gate,the darkness where she was found may have prevented or deterred him from going farther with mutilations untill his eyes became accustomed to better conditions.
Or he may have waited to kill untill the eyes became accustomed.
Then Diemschultz arrives.

[Sam Flynn]

rather than held as the throat was cut a dead-cert to make them scream alot....

...not with a strong hand clamped over the mouth, pulling the head back in order to expose the throat. I'm not suggesting that this happened in these instances, but it's possible.

[joelhall]

Hello again,

I'd find it more conceivable that the double event was perperated by two seperate murderers working different sections of the city but in cahoots, deliberately attempting to time their attacks to give the impression that the 'Ripper' was a single daring individual. One happier and more bloodthirsty in his work and the other drawing the line at a cut throat.

i second that. i also believe that being on her side was typical. i see the victims as having their throats cut lying on their sides, or turned almost face down, for several reasons, not the least of which is to avoid spray to the killer. ive often thought this could be after a blow to the throat or head, to get them down quickly, the marks to the face done whilst muffling screams as they were dragged to a safe spot, rather than held as the throat was cut (a dead-cert to make them scream alot), possibly also choking the victims with something like a handkerchief round the neck. i believe they were then turned onto their backs for the slicing & trophy taking, making these quick attacks, with low chance of evidence being carried away (except the harvested organs).

david, you reading this? im letting it all out bit by bit

great posts gary & welcome to the boards.

[Scotland Yard]

Hello again,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

I hope I haven't hijacked the thread by dragging in points already covered in detail elsewhere. On the other hand, reading some of the exchanges earlier in this thread, this is clearly a place where no stone is left unturned!

To clarify my admittedly wishy-washy statement concerning Liz being placed on the ground 'ripper-style', the emphasis was really on the action rather than the posture. She was deliberately placed on the ground before her throat was cut. I can't believe she lay down there of her own accord, it being so muddy. Two of the previous victims, three if you count Martha Tabram, were placed on the ground first before being slayed. In exactly the same way Eddowes would be less than an hour later. Surely the medical evidence would have indicated more blood down Liz's front if the wound to the throat itself had been the cause of what 'dropped her'.

It just seems an extremely calculated thing to do and also an amazingly coincidental thing to do if the actions of a possibly spontaneous and entirely seperate murderer.

I'd find it more conceivable that the double event was perperated by two seperate murderers working different sections of the city but in cahoots, deliberately attempting to time their attacks to give the impression that the 'Ripper' was a single daring individual. One happier and more bloodthirsty in his work and the other drawing the line at a cut throat.

On a more plausible note, I just see no reason whatever to accept the possibility that the sound of Diemshutz's approach wasn't in fact what gave the Ripper pause and he hid in the shadows of the yard. Its also entirely conceivable that the proximity of the door to the working club made him nervous or perhaps a noise from within startled him some moments before and he escaped through the gates. It seems reasonable to me that the sheer randomness of nearby events could very easily have contributed to Liz being left where and how she fell.

Hi Gary, and welcome to the boards! I agree with c.d - that was an impressive post!

IŽll just test you on a point if I may?

You write:
"What it boils down to is that I find the timing of Stride's murder -along with her body being placed on the ground, Ripper-style, before being killed "

Now, all the other women were found on their backs, but Stride was lying on her left side, legs drawn up in a fetal position. To me, that is very far away from "Ripper style". Unless you argue that being on the ground was Ripper style? But then again, there are only som many places where you can end up with a cut neck...

The best, Gary!
Fisherman

Hi all,

I'll add my welcome and praise Gary. Well worded introduction to your thoughts.

But my friend from Sweden has cited one major problem with "appearances". Although she is a part time prostitute, and she is out after midnight, very near to the empty dark yard where she is killed, and she is killed during the Autumn of Horror, on a night when we believe the Ripper was out working....when she is found it is clear that no attempt had been made to move Liz from the postion she very likely hit the ground in,...on her left side. The knees drawing in towards the body is likely a reflexive protective gesture, as she is on the ground and cut while he stood over her, or while she fell he twisted the scarf he had sideways, and drew the blade across her throat ....dropping her.

That makes the lack of mutilations almost soley dependant on Diemshutz arriving at the very moment she is on the ground. Because in less than a second, Jack would have flipped her on her back...and then parted her legs. And lets not forget that the approaching cart and pony were treading on cobblestones, and would have been heard long before the last second.

Although Liz fits the general theme and is a victim on a "work" night, its just not reasonable to place this murder on Jack with what evidence we do have.

Best regards Gary, all.

[Fisherman]

Hi Gary, and welcome to the boards! I agree with c.d - that was an impressive post!

IŽll just test you on a point if I may?

You write:
"What it boils down to is that I find the timing of Stride's murder -along with her body being placed on the ground, Ripper-style, before being killed "

Now, all the other women were found on their backs, but Stride was lying on her left side, legs drawn up in a fetal position. To me, that is very far away from "Ripper style". Unless you argue that being on the ground was Ripper style? But then again, there are only som many places where you can end up with a cut neck...

The best, Gary!
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Gary,

Let me be the first one to welcome you to the boards. That was an excellent first post.

c.d.