Was Dutfields Yard Really Empty?

[Suzi]

Good points Fisherman

No way though will I ever be convinced that Liz's killer was connected in any way with the killer/killers we know as The Whitechapel Murderer aka Jack the Ripper.
Oh and as a- by the way- I'm always intrigued why Louis D thought at first it may be his wife- was she in the habit of teetering out of the club and slumping down outside? ( ) The excuse that she may have gone outside for a ciggie and had a short,sharp attack of gravity- happily wasn't a viable one then...........

Suzi

[kensei]

Hmm, so many things to respond to.

First of all, to Suzi, IF Liz's killer was Jack and IF he had remained in the yard long enough to blend into the crowd that soon formed, he never would have had time enough to make it to Mire Square to meet, engage and kill Catherine Eddowes. I think the hiding in the yard theory involves the fact that Diemshutz did not just stay with Liz's body and yell for help but went inside the club- by some accounts, to make sure that the body he'd had only a very dim glimpse of by matchlight in pitch darkness was not that of his wife- and that that was when Jack made his escape.

And to Fisherman, it seems to me that the depth of a cut has more to do with the force with which it was inflicted than with the time available in which to do so. The impression given of Jack's throat attacks is that they were not done with sawing motion but with one stroke. Why less force would have been applied to Liz, I guess the only speculation would be that perhaps Jack heard the approaching horse cart in the exact instant of his cut and it made him hesitate while in motion, but that would indeed be wild speculation. I think it should also be considered that a person does not die instantly from a cut throat. Quickly, yes, but not instantly. It's not like being shot in the head. Diemshutz's impression was that he was looking at someone dead, not dying. But again, he was operating in extreme darkness, and there's also the possibility that Liz (and some of the other victims) were strangled unconscious prior to the fatal cut. So much to speculate on. No one will ever know for sure.

[Fisherman]

Suzi writes:
"all he had to do was emerge from the darkness and join the locals,who'd arrived to see what the kerfuffle was,then as the crowd increased just allow himself to be jostled to the back of the ever increasing crowd and off and away into the darkness of the court system or wherever"

Suzi, this is a possibility that is often mentioned. But it has itīs drawbacks.

Consider the situation pre-Diemschutz (or -schitz...) Then, with Jack in the picture, we have a man who is in the yard with Liz, intent on killing her.

Now, take a look at the cut in the neck, which it is not as deep as the ordinary Ripper cuts by a long way. When did it come about?

Well, if it happened before Diemschutz arrived, we are left with the task of explaining why he suddenly settled for a shallow cut and no mutilations.

It could also be that he was disturbed – in that case he would have been disturbed in the exact moment when he cut, explaining why he never sunk his blade deeper into Strides neck.

The last possibility is of course that he heard Diemschutzī pony, and killed her swiftly in spite of that. That means that we have to explain why he took an immense risk, without having to; he could have just walked away, leaving Stride unharmed. The other way around, we are faced with having to explain why he would cut in a shallow manner, risking that she was able to survive, and also taking the risk of withdrawing into the yard with all the perils THAT carried with itself.

I think that the only remotely credible alternative here is the second one. And we are speaking VERY remote here. But I donīt think that he would have retreated into the yard if he had been interrupted while cutting. He would have heard the horse from quite some distance, and he must have realized that if Diemschutz was heading for Dutfields yard, he would have been caught in a cul-de-sac, something he surely would have tried to avoid.
Therefore, I think that he simply would have walked away from the yard in the situation that arose. To begin with, there was a very good chance that Diemschutz would have passed the Yard without turning into it, and if so, the Ripper would have been in no immediate danger. And even if Diemschutz did go into the yard, it would be much preferred by the Ripper to be on the outside of them gates when that happened, instead of hiding in a yard that would beyond doubt be searched.Remember that the people living there all would have known each other and that a complete stranger would have stood out – especially one with a bloody knife in his pocket!

And, of course, in both these cases it applies that he would have had the time to cut Stride to the bone in the first place, ensuring no witness testimony on her behalf.

So how do we avoid all these inconsistencies and logical problems? Well, we do that by accepting that the man who cut Strides neck was NOT the Ripper, and by realizing that he was out of the yard by the time Diemschutz approached it.
B S man is in all probability Strides killer, and he is – likewise in all probability – NOT Jack the Ripper.

All the best,

Fisherman

[Mike Covell]

We still have a few small yards with entries on the High Street in Hull. They are very narrow, but so were the streets so they don't look out of place.
I will try and get some pictures this week.

[Suzi]

Hi Fisherman-
Just checked-

That's about 9.1 ft for me and the other innumerates on the boards!
Very narrow,especially with the gates attached- but probably a typical size for a small yard with stables etc off

Suzi

[Fisherman]

Hi Kensei!

The width of the passageway into the yard was around 280 centimetres. Add to this that the doors would have been hung on posts, and you have an even narrower opening.

All the best!
Fisherman

[Suzi]

Hi all-

IMHO- if...IF our man was lurking in the shadows AFTER dispatching Liz (If indeed it was him at all).. OK-Lets say- if the killer of Liz Stride heard Louis and his pony etc turn into the yard and disappeared into the considerable shadows to wait for 'the discovery' -then all he had to do was emerge from the darkness and join the locals,who'd arrived to see what the kerfuffle was,then as the crowd increased just allow himself to be jostled to the back of the ever increasing crowd and off and away into the darkness of the court system or wherever- That just seems so viable to me.

Suzi

[kensei]

Just thought of a follow-up: Another question would be- as far as lighting conditions, if Jack was indeed hiding inside the yard, how good a view would he have had of Diemshutz? If the scenario is correct I just wonder if Jack knew what sort of person had interrupted him.

[kensei]

Before discovering Casebook I always had the impression from books, films, etc. that the common belief was that Jack had just cut Liz's throat and was about to begin further mutilations when at that instant he heard Diemshutz approaching, and retreated farther into the yard either to look for a back way out or just to hide in the darkness and wait until his exit out the gate was clear. Since he couldn't have known whether or not that would in fact happen, his adrenalin must have been racing, but then the events of the rest of that night have always seemed to me to label Jack as a bit of a limits-pushing adrenalin junky. It may also speak to his cowardly side that he did not simply attack Diemshutz, slash at him or just push him aside, to make his escape. He would only attack women, and mostly drunken ones at that.

One other point- in the photos of Berner Street that point out where the gate of Dutfield's Yard was, maybe it's just the camera angle but the space between the Club and the next building looks really tight to me. Just how wide was that gate?

[Jon Guy]

Could you see into the yard from the street?

Hi C.D.

Taken from Ripperologist, the Scotsman says :

The spot where the murder was
committed, therefore, is overlooked on three sides; and, inasmuch
as the gates were open on Saturday night, any casual
pedestrian might easily have seen the commission of the crime.

[Mitch Rowe]

I'd always assumed it to be the case that Jack hid in the shadows (if it happened at all) because his exit was blocked. The hiding was post-murder, not in anticipation of it.

PHILIP

Oh..Sorry.
Yes. Im thinking it may have happened like this. Diemschutz turns into the yard. The horse stops because Liz and Jack are in the path. Jack then decides to kill Stride. Maybe because she picked him up somewhere where Liz goes to get regular customers? Maybe JTR just knows he needs to mutilate that night and Liz could recognize him if he kills someone else and Police link the two incidents together. Or JTR could have been ready at any time to abort one mission and start another leaving no witnesses. I mean JTR could have walked with Liz as far as they went and decided the yard wasnt safe enough for him. Before Diemschutz even appears JTR is gone.

[George Hutchinson]

I'd always assumed it to be the case that Jack hid in the shadows (if it happened at all) because his exit was blocked. The hiding was post-murder, not in anticipation of it.

PHILIP

[c.d.]

Jack doesnt seem like the type to hide in the shadows waiting for a victim.
If this yard were one of Strides usual areas where she felt safe doing business then Schwartz story seems more creditable. We dont how quickly Stride could have picked up another customer who turned out to be JTR.

Hi Mitch,

I don't see Jack in the shadows waiting for a victim either. I don't have a problem with him being Liz's date or appearing on the scene shortly after the BS man left.

c.d.

[Mitch Rowe]

Jack doesnt seem like the type to hide in the shadows waiting for a victim.
If this yard were one of Strides usual areas where she felt safe doing business then Schwartz story seems more creditable. We dont how quickly Stride could have picked up another customer who turned out to be JTR.

[sdreid]

Maybe Jack ducked in the yard to take a leak and then saw Stride having her little altercation. When she went in there to straighten up, he pounced. Just a possibility I'd say. Who knows!?